European Communities (Finance) Bill (Hansard, 1 July 1985)

§ Mr. Nicholas Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West)
On a point of order, Sir Paul. I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
I ask you to take that unusual step because we read in the newspapers today that there was an unsuccessful meeting of the Council of Ministers in Milan at the weekend and as yet the Prime Minister has been unable to report on the matter to the House of Commons.
You will appreciate, I am sure, that the concern of many hon. Members from all parts of the Committee is that the expenditure of the EEC may continue unchecked. We read that there has been a dispute about the areas that might be controlled by majority decision within the Council of Ministers. If that system of majority decision is extended to activities that cost money, the Government's asessment of the future requirements for money for the EEC might turn out to be wrong.
It may be that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be abe to calm all fears and to say clearly that she has no intention of allowing majority voting over any EEC activity that costs money, and it may be that she will also give us clearly to understand that the passage in the communiqué on Fontainebleau to the effect that own resources may be increased to 1.6 per cent. by 1 January 1988 has no effect in her mind and that she has no intention of allowing such increase, but it would be wrong if the Committee were to proceed to discuss the details, for instance, of the 1986 EEC budget without knowing what had been agreed last weekend at Milan and without knowing what the Government's position is.
I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister wants to come to tell the House about this. Far and away the best procedure would be to give her the opportunity to come immediately, if she wishes, or otherwise to adjourn consideration of the Bill until such time as she is able to come. To proceed to discuss the details of this important Bill—described by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary as one of the most important matters that we have had to deal with in recent times — without understanding the Government's position in relation to the Heads of Government of our fellow member states of the EEC is to proceed on a quicksand. We simply do not know where the finances of the EEC—

§ The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Paul Dean)
Order. I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but he is now developing arguments which he would use were I to grant the motion. I think that I have got the drift of his argument. Perhaps he can bring his point of order to a conclusion.

§ Mr. Budgen
I am grateful, Sir Paul. I ask only that we may be allowed to debate the motion that I put to you. Since I believe that there will be concern in all parts of the Committee that we should proceed on a proper basis, I 73 hope that you will be able to allow a short debate on the issue so that the mood of the Committee may be made known.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. I am dealing with the personal application of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen). As the hon. Gentleman said, and as the Committee will realise, we have made no progress yet in the Committee proceedings. Amendments have been selected and it is the job of the Committee to get on with the business, so I am not prepared to accept the hon. Gentleman's motion.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. I have given my ruling. I am not prepared to accept further points of order on this matter. The first amendment to be considered is No. 5.

§ Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney)
On a separate point of order, Sir Paul. Considerable concern was expressed in the House earlier today that there has been no statement arising out of the Milan summit. I share the concern of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that we should proceed with this Bill without a statement on the Milan summit. My point of order relates to the request that a statement be made. It will take only a few moments to deploy the argument.
The Bill seeks to give legal force to a Community treaty. It is a Community treaty that deals with the most sensitive point of all the Community's affairs, that is, the financing of the Community itself. It is 15 years since the Community last had a treaty defining its own resources. We are now for the first time, as it were, seeking to change that agreement in a way that will give greater possibilities for the financing of the Community in future.
The relevance of Milan to this, and the reason why I believe we should have a statement now, is that at Milan what was discussed to our surprise was a further treaty. Apparently a discussion took place and as a result of a majority vote it was agreed that a conference should be held at which the object would be to draft a new treaty to carry forward the affairs of the Community. It is inconceivable that any new treaty would fail to make provision for the financing of the Community. I therefore think it would be right to have a statement.

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. The right hon. Gentleman will realise that we are now in Committee. This is not a matter over which I have any control. I notice that the Leader of the House is here, and he has no doubt heard what has been said. The right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) will know from his long experience in this place of the way in which to try to get a statement in due course.

§ Mr. Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)
On a further point of order, Sir Paul. The first amendment that you have kindly said you will consider is amendment No. 5, which deals with document COM (85)36, which unfortunately became available only at about 12 noon. I have studied it and it deals with the division between allocated and unallocated expenditure. Two decisions at Milan yesterday that had nothing to do with European union made alterations in what is regarded as allocated and unallocated expenditure. In particular, in relation to a decision on aid it was revealed that unfortunately less than 74 half of the aid allocated to Ethiopia had been delivered. In those circumstances it is impossible for us to consider amendment No. 5 until we know the text of what was agreed at Milan on allocated and unallocated expenditure, otherwise the amendment will be discussed in the dark.

The Second Deputy Chairman
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because he is helping the Committee to make progress. These are precisely the sorts of points that it will be in order for him to make when we come, as we are now doing, to amendment No. 5.

§ Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)
Further to the point of order, Sir Paul. On a point of elucidation concerning Standing Orders Nos. 28 and 29, you have made a ruling that we must proceed and said that you will not accept a motion to report progress. The two groups of amendments to which we shall proceed involve two questions — first, the inclusion of a document and, secondly, a percentage. The third Question that you will put to hon. Members is that clause 1 stand part of the Bill.
Because of the brevity of the Bill, the Question that clause 1 stand part has to do with the principle of the Bill which was discussed last week in relation to the EEC's scope, treaties, purposes and direction as were then extant. We all know that since then conversations have taken place in Milan. It is almost certain that another conference will be held relating to future treaties.
I take it, Sir Paul, that the changed circumstances will be borne in mind in deciding whether to accept a motion to report progress. Given the scope of the Question that clause 1 stand part, a different case might have to be considered. Will you accept representations at that time from hon. Members to move a motion to report progress?

The Second Deputy Chairman
I think that the hon. Member will recognise that the Chair cannot possibly anticipate. There are two groups of amendments to clause 1 and, until we have dealt with them, it is not possible to say whether a debate on the Question that clause 1 stand part would be appropriate or whether the motion to which the hon. Member referred would be acceptable. I am sure that the hon. Member realises that that matter must be judged when we reach that stage.

§ Mr. Jonathan Aitken (Thanet, South)
Further to the point of order, Sir Paul, which the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) raised. Back Benchers look to the Chair to protect their rights. I suggest that the rights on which basis the Bill was introduced have been dramatically changed by events in Milan. The Milan summit was not just a mad hatter's tea party of discord and disunity that one can criticise from afar. Last week, the Bill was presented to the House on one basis, which has now changed. The House and the country have been sold the Bill on a false prospectus of many types of reform, especially budgetary reform. Suddenly, there was complete chaos and disunity which not merely changed the rules but removed the playing field and the goal posts. The idea is that hon. Members will proceed to discuss the Committee stage although a completely new treaty and two tiers are seriously envisaged. In addition, many documents appear to have been circulated in press releases —for example, guaranteeing that Britain will vote in the United Nations in unity with her European partners. Not a word about this was disclosed in advance to the House of Commons and no document was placed in the Library.
75 The House of Commons and the country have been treated in a cavalier fashion. This fact has emerged because of the chaos at the Milan summit. The Chair should protect the rights of Back Benchers who feel strongly about this matter and should suggest that the Whips get together and agree to report progress as soon as possible.

The Second Deputy Chairman
I understand the hon. Member's point. I am sure that he recognises that I have no power to force a Minister to make a statement. Many of the hon. Member's arguments might well be relevant to the amendment that we are about to discuss.

§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)
Further to the point of order, Sir Paul. You say that you do not have the power to compel a Minister to make a statement. We understand that and appreciate your difficulties. However, you have the power to allow hon. Members to debate for a short period whether to report progress. If progress were reported, it would allow a Minister—

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. I have already given a ruling on that matter. I have clearly said that I am not prepared to accept such a motion. I am not prepared to have arguments about that.

§ Mr. Ron Leighton (Newham, North-East)
Further to the point of order, Sir Paul. I wonder whether you can help me and many other hon. Members. I think we have a case of Hamlet without the prince. We are asked to vote hundreds of millions of pounds. We are asked to throw money at a problem, but we are not sure what the problem is. The problem is moving. Where must we throw the money? We are not sure. We have read in the newspapers about the Milan conference and the humiliation suffered and snubs received by the Prime Minister. We do not know what the Government's policy towards the Common Market is. I understand—the Leader of the House might be able to help us — that tomorrow we may hear officially about the Government's policy on this problem at which we are asked to throw money. As you know, Sir Paul, our main leverage is our ability to decide whether to vote money. Why vote the money before we have heard the Government's approach?
The Prime Minister may not be available, but the Leader of the House certainly is. He understands these matters better than most. Perhaps he could advise us whether we should proceed this evening to vote more money for something to which the Government might not want to give more money. Perhaps you could help the Committee, Sir Paul, in explaining how we should proceed.

§ Mr. Ian Mikardo (Bow and Poplar)
Further to the point of order, Sir Paul. I appreciate that you have said that you have given a ruling. In the light of the observations during the past few minutes by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber, would you be kind enough to give further thought to your ruling? It is absolutely clear that, if we proceed to deal with the Committee stage now, we shall be groping in the dark—[Interruption.] We shall blunder about. Like a number of people in a dark room, we shall be groping around and, unless we are careful, we shall fall over things. I understand that it is possible that during the next 24 hours light will be shed on these 76 proceedings. If so, would it not make sense for us to delay the consideration of the Committee stage until that light breaks in upon us?

The Second Deputy Chairman
I appreciate the hon. Member's point, but this is not the first time that a Committee has been groping in the dark. It may well be that, if we proceed with the debate and many of these points are raised, we shall see some light where, apparently, there is now darkness. I hope that we shall now continue with the debate.

§ Mr. Budgen
May I suggest a compromise, Sir Paul? The Committee hopes that my right hon. Friend and hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench will be able to give us the information that we seek. We expect to have a full and informative debate. If, by chance, they do not find it possible to give us the information for which we ask, will you, Sir Paul, help the Committee by giving us some hope that it may be possible to accept the motion to adjourn these proceedings if the mood of the Committee is that it is not yet fully informed? Of course, we hope that over the next hour or so it will be possible for the Committee to be fully informed by my right hon. and hon. Friends, but if, sadly, they fail in that important endeavour, perhaps you would allow this motion to be considered again, Sir Paul.

The Second Deputy Chairman
The Committee has had a good run on these points of order. At appropriate moments, the Chair will always be ready to reconsider these matters. I suggest to the Committee that we begin the debate, see how we go, and see what enlightenment is spread on the issues that we are supposed to be debating.

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish)
As I understand it, Sir Paul, the Chair has a responsibility to certify that any Bill presented to the Committee does not infringe any of the privileges of the House of Commons or the procedures that the Bill has to undergo. In order to do that, the Chair must be satisfied that the Bill is correctly printed. Has the Chair considered that the money resolution as printed would appear to have been in order when the Bill was first presented, but the circumstances of the weekend suggest that it is not now correct? Therefore, there might be some doubt about whether the privileges and rights of the House of Commons are in danger because of the weekend's developments. Will you assure us, Sir Paul, that the Chair has had the opportunity to study the Bill, obviously on the basis of information that we do not have at this stage, to ensure that the money resolution is correct and does not infringe any of the rights of the House of Commons?

The Second Deputy Chairman
The amendments are in order or they would not have been selected. We should now proceed with the debate.

§ Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West)
On a point of order, Sir Paul. If we allow this debate to progress to clause stand part, we shall have precluded the possibility of moving amendments which might prove to be relevant when we know the nature of the statement to be made by the Prime Minister. We are not capable of judging that at present. If we follow the course that you recommend, Sir Paul, which I accept would normally be the sensible one, it would mean that because of the nature of the Bill, which has one clause, the Committee will have missed the opportunity to table amendments to the clause in the light 77 of the Prime Minister's statement. For that reason, I suggest that we are in a unique position and that an early decision is needed on whether we should progress with the Bill.

The Second Deputy Chairman
If that point were to arise, it would be open to the Committee, when it reaches the debate on the Question, That clause 1 stand part of the Bill, to reject the clause. There are many possibilities open to the Committee. I have already said that we should now proceed with the debate. The Chair is prepared to keep an open mind about a dilatory motion later, but I cannot commit the Chair at this stage. The Committee has work to do and we should proceed with it.

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
On a point of order, Sir Paul. Would you consider what the position would be if we were able to adjourn these proceedings to allow the Prime Minister to make a statement? It has crossed the minds of several of my hon. Friends that if the Prime Minister can find time to gallivant round the world spending £2.5 million of taxpayers' money — that is what it cost between 1979 and March this year—she has a duty to explain to the House of Commons what happened at the weekend in Milan. You will have noticed, Sir Paul, that the Common Market representatives decided in Milan that the best way to proceed was to adjourn the proceedings there and then and to have a conference. If it is all right for the Common Market to spend all that money bringing over all the Heads of Governments and to push up the value added tax contribution to 1.4 per cent. and then to spend much more organising a conference, surely it is not asking too much to say, through you, Sir Paul, "What is good for them is good for us, and we shall not expend any more money." It could be argued that if we were to delay the enactment of the Bill — well, temporarily shelve it — we would be saving money instead of spending it. I believe that the issue should be dealt with after the Prime Minister has been brought to the House to make a statement.

The Second Deputy Chairman
The hon. Gentleman knows that I have already dealt with that point. We must now proceed with the amendments. I call Mr. George Robertson to move amendment No. 5.

§ Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)
rose—

§ Mr. Marlow
Further to the point of order, Sir Paul. It follows on from the point of order that was raised by the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams).

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
Further to that point of order, Sir Paul.

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. I have dealt with many points of order. I dealt earlier with all the points which have been raised recently. The raising of these points of order is becoming an abuse of the Committee's time. The Committee has work to do, and we must get on with it. I call Mr. George Robertson to move amendment No. 5.

§ Mr. George Robertson
rose—

§ Mr. Marlow
Further to that point of order, Sir Paul.

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
On a point of order, Sir Paul.

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. I have already explained to the Committee that I am not prepared to take further points of order. The Committee has had a good run 78 on points of order and I have done my best to answer all those that have been raised. Furthermore, I have said that the Chair will always be prepared to consider matters when it can see how the Committee has proceeded. We must now proceed, and I call Mr. George Robertson to move amendment No. 5.

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
On a point of order, Sir Paul.

§ Mr. George Robertson
I beg to move—

The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. Does the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) have a point of order to raise which I have not dealt with so far? Is it a different point of order?

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
Yes, Sir Paul. I asked for an assurance from you, Sir Paul, that the money resolution was correctly printed. When you replied to that point of order, you said that you considered the amendments to be in order. I ask for an assurance, Sir Paul, that the money resolution is absolutely correct as printed and that the Committee is not being misled as a result of the events of the weekend.

The Second Deputy Chairman
The answer to the hon. Gentleman's point of order is yes. It is a wide money resolution, which covers the Bill and the amendments. I call Mr. George Robertson to move amendment No. 5.