§ 17. Mr. Greenwayasked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what are the current pay and emoluments of curates; and what were the comparative figures 10 and 20 years ago, in real terms.
§ The Second Church Estates Commissioner, Representing Church Commissioners (Sir William van Straubenzee)The current average stipend of an assistant curate is £5,991. In addition, he is provided with a house free of rent, rates, repairs and insurance. I will, with permission, circulate the comparative figures in the Official Report. But they show an improvement in real terms of 35 per cent, over 10 and about 60 per cent, over 20 years.
§ Mr. GreenwayWill my hon. Friend assure the House that the Church Commissioners will endeavour to pay those scales to all curates? Will he explain why we now have only 10,000 clergy, compared with 100 years ago when we had 20,000 and half the present population? Has productivity been maintained and has quality improved? If so, what on earth did they do 100 years ago?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeThe short answer is that there is an upper and a lower level on the scale, and a curate is paid within those levels. Regarding the present time, the one factor that is common to both periods is that men undoubtedly do not offer themselves for ordination for financial reasons. I am concerned with the financial matter only, because the commissioners are not responsible, I must make clear, for recruitment.
§ Mr. RymanWith respect to the pay of curates, are there not special factors today which would justify an increase? Although there appears to be a calculated conspiracy in the House to prevent a debate on the important matter of the coalmining dispute, does not the dispute impose extra burdens on the clergy, who are doing excellent additional work in parishes in coalmining areas?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeWhile I leave aside immediate matters, I accept that the position of the curates has been such that they have deserved special consideration. I hope that the hon. Gentleman has, therefore, followed that that is precisely what the Church 725 Commissioners have attempted to do and, indeed, as the figures show, have succeeded in doing during the past 20 years.
Following are the comparative figures:For 1984–85 the commissioners, as Central Stipends Authority, have recommended a five-year increment scale of £5,600-£6,100. The average stipend in 1984–85 was £5,991. In 1974–75 the equivalent incremental scale extended over eight years from £l,150-£l,510 with an average stipend in November 1974 of £1,424 (equivalent to £4,435 at November 1984 prices). There was no national scale in 1964–65 nor comparable statistics. However, the record indicates that the average stipend of assistant curates was in the region of £600, or £3,800 at November 1984 prices.