Trials (Tape Recordings) (Hansard, 16 January 1985)

§ 32. Mr. Dalyell
asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether, in the light of the case of Sergeant Jamieson of Bo'ness, he will discuss with procurators fiscal the use of tape recordings as evidence in Scottish courts.

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland (Mr. Peter Fraser)
I understand that the hon. Member's question relates to the tape recording of evidence given in summary trials in Scottish courts for use in appeals. I have no plans at present to discuss such tape recordings with procurators fiscal in the light of the case to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

§ Mr. Dalyell
Is the objection based on cost?

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
The hon. Gentleman may recall that when he first raised this with the previous Lord Advocate he suggested changes in the way in which adjustments to stated cases were put before the Appeal Court. He will also recall that those very changes were introduced in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act. I am satisfied that in that respect the appeal procedure is now working very much better.

§ 33. Mr. Maxton
asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland when he will meet procurators fiscal to discuss the use of tape recordings as evidence in Scottish courts.

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
I have no plans at present to do so. After evaluation of the experiment carried out on behalf of the Scottish Home and Health Department between 1980 and 1983 in Falkirk and Dundee, and latterly also in Aberdeen and part of Glasgow, it will be for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to decide whether tape recordings of police interviews should be introduced in Scotland on a formal basis. Thereafter it may be appropriate for my noble and learned Friend the Lord Advocate and myself to meet procurators fiscal or to issue guidance to them.

§ Mr. Maxton
Is the Minister aware that promises were made in Committee on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill to the effect that the use of tape recordings would be introduced as soon as possible to provide some safeguard against the wrongful use of detention? When will that take place, or is the delay to continue indefinitely?

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
I well recall the considerable debate that took place on tape recording and the subsequent agreement that an experiment should take place, which was then carried out. The hon. Gentleman will also be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has already told the House that the Government intend to publish the results of the experiment in the form of a consultation paper before any final decisions are taken about the future of tape recording of police interviews in Scotland.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Does my hon. and learned Friend appreciate that tape recording has resulted in grave difficulties in the proper presentation of evidence for the conviction of those who are guilty and that if it were introduced it would result in an impossible situation—

§ Mr. Maxton
The hon. and learned Gentleman was down there on the Front Bench making the promises.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
—in which the police would never know what evidence was acceptable or admissible or what questions were allowable but not admissible. The result would be that many guilty people would be acquitted, and the innovation would be of no benefit to the innocent.

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
I am bound to accept that, after the introduction of the tape recording of police interviews, a number of cases came before the courts that probably made it more difficult for police officers to understand how far they could go in the examination of suspects. However, following the first reference by the Lord Advocate to the Court of Appeal, the situation has been clarified for police officers. After what was said by the Lord Justice General, I hope that police officers understand just how far they can go, what questions would be fair for them to put to suspects at the police station and which, on the other hand, would be improper.

§ Mr. Maclennan
Why has so much time elapsed since the conclusion of the experiment without the Government letting us know their own views?

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
The results of the experiment are being collated. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has made it clear that those results will be published for wider public consultation in the form of a consultation paper. The experiment was first set up in two places and subsequently extended to Aberdeen and Glasgow. This is a difficult matter and the Government are proceeding in a sensible and cautious way in considering the introduction of such changes.

§ Mr. Dewar
The Solicitor-General for Scotland must accept that, even by the standards of this place, and bearing in mind the movement of Governments, the time lag has been quite noticeable. Will he study the written answer in the Official Report of 10 January giving details of the favourable experiences in Leicester and, I believe, five other areas of England, where experiments have been conducted? After five or six years, we should have at least have reached the stage of formal consultation. When will the consultation paper be published?

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
That is a matter for the Secretary of State for Scotland. As I have already made clear to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Fairbairn), it has taken sometime for cases to come before the appeal courts that clarify the rights and duties of police officers in conducting interviews. That being so, I do not consider that there has been undue delay in carrying out a difficult and important experiment.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. In fairness to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown), whom I did not see rise, I will, exceptionally, call him now.

Mr. Ron Brown
Will the Solicitor-General for Scotland apologise to Mr. David Hamilton and pay him the appropriate sum of compensation for the period that he spent in gaol?

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
Mr. Hamilton was brought before the court in Edinburgh shortly before Christmas. He was allowed the opportunity of a fair trial before a sheriff and a jury, and he was acquitted. I believe that justice was done in the normal way, and that the hon. Gentleman should be satisfied.