§ 2. Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of discussions in relation to teachers' pay in Scotland.
§ 5. Mr. Donald Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on teachers' pay.
§ 8. Mr. Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on teachers' pay.
§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. George Younger)I wrote again on 8 January to the teachers' side of the Scottish joint negotiating committee for teaching staff in school education inviting it to give further thought to my earlier proposal that the SJNC should undertake a detailed examination of salaries and conditions of service together. I understand that the SJNC decided yesterday to 317 make a joint approach to me for a meeting. Although I have not yet received this letter, I shall, of course, be glad to meet its representatives.
§ Mr. DouglasDoes the Secretary of State agree that the mantle with which he seeks to cloak himself — that of generous George — is wholly misplaced? Is it not true that under the Conservative Administration teachers' pay in Scotland has fallen far below the level that they would expect? Is it not a farce to suggest that the Government have no responsibility for ensuring that teachers' pay keeps up with rather than falls behind the level of inflation? Is he aware that he has managed to unite all the teaching forces in Scotland against his Government?
§ Mr. YoungerI do not accept the hon. Gentleman's calculation and figures. However, I fully appreciate that teachers feel very strongly about what they perceive to be injustices, and about which they are currently complaining. By far the most reasonable way to deal with the problem is to ask the body set up for the precise purpose of considering pay and conditions of teachers to investigate the complaints.
§ Mr. Donald StewartWhy is the Secretary of State surprised by the action of the Scottish teachers after 10 years' erosion of their salary levels and what they have found to be the futility of dealing with Scottish Office Ministers? Is he aware that, far from playing the role of generous George, he is playing the role of General Jaruzelski in making the teachers dance to the tune of another country? The surprising factor is the forbearance of the teaching profession in Scotland.
§ Mr. YoungerI cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman. When comparing teachers' salaries since 1979 with other grades—something that they purport to do—they have had similar rates of increase to other local authority employees and civil servants. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman does not have a strong point.
As I keep saying, I have not turned down their complaints out of hand. I have suggested a way forward, and I hope that, rather than disrupt our schools, the teachers will accept my suggestion.
§ Mr. WilsonThe Secretary of State says that he has not turned down the teachers' claim out of hand. In his letter of 11 December he said that he would consider the proposals
on their merits and in the framework of the Government's existing public expenditure plans"?Is not the reason why he cannot go ahead with an independent pay review that he has orders from the Treasury not to impede the Government's giveaway of taxation money orginally planned for Easter?
§ Mr. YoungerI suppose that the teachers' employers are in exactly the same position as every other employer throughtout the country. If they are considering what they can give in wage increases to their employees, they must consider the resources that they have available. I do not see anything unusual about that.
§ Mr. HendersonIs my right hon. Friend aware that some teachers have made comparisons between increases in their pay and the pay of Members of Parliament? I have obtained from the Library the comparative figures for the 10 years from 1974. They show that, compared with the increase in the retail prices index, teachers's salaries have risen by 7 per cent. while the salaries of Members of 318 Parliament have declined by 20 per cent. Does my right hon. Friend agree that a more realistic comparison would be with teachers' pay south of the border? Does he recognise that the responsible settlement made last year by Scottish teachers should be fully taken into account, especially as the militancy in England achieved a slightly larger settlement? Should we not reward those who take a responsible attitude, rather than the militants?
§ Mr. YoungerI am interested in my hon. Friend's comparisons, to which I shall not add, except to say that it might be interesting to discover the reaction of teachers to trying hon. Members' hours of work.
§ Mr. MaxtonDoes the Secretary of State remember that on television just before Christmas he said that to give an independent inquiry into teachers's pay would be to give a blank cheque to the Educational Institute of Scotland? Was that not an admission that the teachers' case is recognised fully by him and that is why he will not have such an inquiry?
§ Mr. YoungerNot at all. A blank cheque can have any figure, high or low, put on it.
§ Lord James Douglas-HamiltonIs my right hon. Friend aware that there is concern about whether re-sits in 0-grade mathematics and English will take place in future? Will this point be borne in mind in any discussions?
§ Mr. YoungerI appreciate the point that my hon. Friend makes. It is an important matter, which is under consideration, and I hope to announce a decision shortly.
§ Mr. DewarIt is no good Ministers deploring the damage that may come from industrial action when the right hon. Gentleman's obstinacy lies at the root of the problem. Leaving aside the curious comparison with so unrepresentative a grouping as Members of this House, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his refusal to accept an independent pay review is, in a sense, a tacit acceptance that teachers' salaries have fallen behind comparable groupings and do not measure up to the responsibilities of the job?
If the right hon. Gentleman is right in saying, as he consistently maintains, that teachers have done reasonably well out of recent pay negotiations, why is he frightened to set up an independent pay review, thus risking plunging us into a great deal of disruption and difficulty for pupils? Will he reconsider his proposition that any uprating in salary can be bought by the teachers' profession only at the expense of their terms and conditions of employment?
§ Mr. YoungerI am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say critical things today about the damaging of the service, because that seems to be an absolutely deplorable development — [Interruption.] I hope that, as we all have the interests of schoolchildren in mind, now that I have agreed to have the meeting which the Scottish joint negotiating committee has requested, I can take it that disruption of schools will stop, at least until after that meeting has taken place.
The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question gives me an opportunity to make it clear, yet again, that, although I might have done so, I have not turned down the teachers' case out of hand. The impression has been given that I have, but I have not. I have disagreed with the method by which they asked for their case to be considered, but I have pointed to a way forward by which 319 all these matters, including conditions of service, can be looked into. Rather than bust up the education of our children. we should take that way forward and try to get this matter discussed.