HC Deb 16 January 1985 vol 71 cc326-8
12. Mr. Kirkwood

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the effect of planned Government legislation on Scottish rural bus services.

Mr. Ancram

Under existing policies many services have been curtailed or withdrawn. Our proposals offer the prospect of better services by removing outdated restrictions and encouraging operators to offer new ways of meeting needs. To overcome any transitional difficulties a rural bus grant will be available to all operators of rural services for a four-year period and an innovation grant scheme will encourage the development of new initiatives.

Mr. Kirkwood

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that officials in his Department revealed recently that an internal departmental study shows that, whereas there might be savings in subsidies in the Lothians and Strathclyde, in the rural areas of Scotland local authorities will eventually have to pay more in subsidies? I challenge the hon. Gentleman to publish that survey so that we can look at the facts. Can he give the House an assurance that if, eventually, that transpires to be the case and rural regional authorities in Scotland have to pay more in subsidies, he will make sure that the finance is made available rather than allow routes to contract further?

Mr. Ancram

The hon. Gentleman sounds as if he believes that the bus industry and the use of buses in Scotland, particularly in the rural areas, is increasing. Perhaps some of his comments on the matter would stand in a better light if that were so, but we are working against a history of decline in bus usage and in the whole bus industry in Scotland, particularly in the rural areas. I believe that by putting the subsidised routes out to tender efficiency will be increased and a better service will be provided at a better cost.

Mr. Henderson

Is my hon. Friend aware that there has long been anxiety about the quality of rural bus services and that the announcements that he has made will be very welcome to those who live in rural areas? Is he aware that the result of an experiment in deregulation in Herefordshire was to reduce subsidy, to increase services and to reduce fares, which is surely what we want?

Mr. Ancram

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that example to the notice of the House. If subsidised routes are put out to tender, and if they are efficiently run at present and are as cost-effective as possible, obviously those same operators will continue, but if there is a better and cheaper way of running them, tendering will provide that.

Mr. Steel

Before the Secretary of State comes to any final conclusions on the matter, will he undertake to examine the financing of the two community bus services that exist in Scotland, one in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood), and one in my constituency, recognise what a cost-effective and inexpensive way this is of providing a service, and Consider the assistance that he could give with replacement vehicles?

Mr. Ancram

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and it is certainly a point that was part of the White Paper published by the Government, that innovation and new ideas, particularly in rural areas, are important. Indeed, he has examples in his own constituency and in his own area of such ideas providing improved services. It is for that reason, as I have already said, that we shall be introducing an innovation grant scheme to try to encourage further such ideas.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my hon. Friend agree that in Scotland in particular the rural bus service has been in savage decline for 25 years? Many parts of my constituency are not served by any public transport. Therefore, to continue with the status quo could only mean fewer and fewer services being made available to my Highland constituents. The proposals that the Government are making are therefore an attempt to reverse this declining situation.

Mr. Ancram

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point so strongly. It is precisely because we have been faced with a history of decline in the bus services—and as constituency Members most of us will know from the complaints we receive that people are not satisfied with the bus services they have at present—that we believe that our proposals offer the one opportunity of reversing that trend. It has been noticeable that in all the criticism that has been made of the White Paper not one alternative idea for improving bus services has been put forward.

Mr. Millan

The Minister said that it is his belief that the proposals will lead to an improvement in bus services. However, the fact is that neither the Minister nor his officials have ever run a bus service. It is impossible to find anyone in Scotland who has run a bus service who believes other than that these proposals will be disastrous, not only for rural bus services, but for many other bus services as well.

Mr. Ancram

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will remember that almost precisely the same criticisms were made of the express coach services before deregulation. The use of those coaches has proved how wrong that criticism was.

Mr. Craigen

What guarantee will the Minister give to the rural communities that he will save their buses? He keeps telling the House about the money that he has allocated for innovation grants. Why is it that COSLA views as an insult the amount of money that he is making available to Scotland to retain rural bus services?

Mr. Ancram

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I met the transport sub-committee of COSLA on Monday. I made it clear to the sub-committee that throughout the United Kingdom a grant will be paid in the rural areas within the transition period of four years. That will start at a rate of £20 million, reducing on a graduated scale to £5 million in the last of those four years. When the hon. Gentleman talks of saving buses, he speaks as if that is what is happening in the rural areas. The rural areas in particular have suffered from reducing bus services. These proposals at last give them a chance of seeing the sort of services that they want.