HC Deb 14 January 1985 vol 71 cc3-5
3. Mr. Marlow

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the Bus Bill will be presented.

Mr. Ridley

Shortly, Sir.

Mr. Marlow

Seeing that the bus's share of personal transport has fallen to a meagre quarter of what it was 30 years ago and yet the revenue subsidy spent on buses is some 50 times as great as it was 10 years ago, is it not clearly time that some radical change and solution were introduced? Is it not the case that anyone who looks at the situation objectively finds himself fundamentally behind the proposals in the White Paper?

Mr. Ridley

My hon. Friend is quite right. I think that the subsidy is about 14 times greater, but otherwise I entirely agree with what he has said. In Northampton, the revenue support is 16 per cent, of the total cost of the bus operation. We believe that that money can be saved by increased efficiency or productivity, as has been demonstrated in many areas where competition has been tried. I believe that when the Bill is published, the policy before the House will lead to greater and better bus services and smaller subsidies, to the benefit of all concerned.

Mr. Stephen Ross

We hope that the delay in publishing the Bill means that the Secretary of State is taking on board some of the more sensible representations that have been made to him by the Bus and Coach Council and by Hackney carriage proprietors, among many others. Is that so?

Mr. Ridley

Many responses to the consultative documents have been received, and we have been careful to take all the good advice that they have included. I am sure that I can count on the hon. Gentleman to support the princples of competition and of putting the consumer first, which used to form one of the Liberal party's foremost platforms.

Mr. Parris

Will my right hon. Friend attend not only to the chorus of vested interests that can be expected to be raised against such a change, but to the interests of those passengers who benefit from these changes but who do not yet know who they are?

Mr. Ridley

We know that about 40 per cent, of the population depend on buses, and that is a very large clientele. I confirm that the proposals in the White Paper, and eventually in the Bill, are designed to assist and improve the lot of the passengers rather than of the operators.

Mr. Roy Hughes

Is it not time that the Secretary of State realised that his proposals are causing great anxiety throughout the community? Does he appreciate that many of those with vast experience of the transport industry believe that deregulation is a receipe for disaster? Is it not time that he rethought the whole issue and entered into further discussions with the local authorities, trade unions and voluntary bodies, such as the National Federation of Women's Institutes.

Mr. Ridley

If the hon. Gentleman has the interests of the passengers at heart, he should try to reassure them that the Government's proposals will not only increase the standard and frequency of services but also, we hope, reduce fares in many cases. He should be reassuring his constituents that the proposals are in their interests. He should not be listening so much to the operators.

Mr. Robert Atkins

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that long delays in the introduction of the Bill will not help the future of Ley land Bus, in my constituency which manufactures the best buses in the world? Does my right hon. Friend recognise that an urgent introduction of the Bill, allowing for all the changes and considerations that might have to be made, is in the interests of the manufacturers as well as of potential passengers?

Mr. Ridley

In view of my hon. Friend's urgent representation I shall alter my original answer from "Shortly" to "Very shortly." I am fully aware of the problems of Leyland Bus. I have visited the factory. After an initial difficult period, I am sure that our policy, will result in more orders for the British bus industry, provided that it is competitive and supplies the market with what it wants.

Mrs Dunwoody

Does the Secretary of State not understand that the elimination of cross-subsidy between routes will materially damage, above all, the people who live in rural areas? Since his White Paper said that the three trial areas had been failures, why is the right hon. Gentleman not prepared to accept that what he suggests is totally unworkable and irresponsible, and is aimed particulary at the people who cannot hit back—the bus passengers?

Mr. Ridley

The hon. Lady has got it wrong again. If she studies the trial areas in Hereford and Worcester she will discover that the absence of cross-subsidy has resulted in a reduction in the subsidy, the same network being provided in the rural areas and with lower fares in many cases. What happened in Hereford and Worcester can be applied generally to the rural areas and so provide better bus services with greater frequencies and at less expense.