§ 3. Mr. Gregoryasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to receive proposals from the National Bus Company for the restructuring of that company.
§ The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Nicholas Ridley)I expect to begin discussions with the NBC about restructuring and associated matters soon.
§ Mr. GregoryWill my right hon. Friend favour proposals that will encourage share owning by employees, so that as many as possible may participate in the fruits of deregulation and in their own companies, bearing in mind that if we split up the NBC there could be 50 or 60 companies?
§ Mr. RidleyI agree with my hon. Friend that it would be most desirable for employees of the subsidiaries of the NBC to be able to buy their companies through an employee buy-out or to participate in share schemes if they do not wish to take part in a buyout. The Bill includes a provision to that effect.
We shall be asking the NBC to provide options, which will include a large number of subsidiary companies, though a final decision will not be taken until we see what options are put forward.
§ Mr. Stephen RossMy question has already been put, but I will ask the Secretary of State—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If the hon. Gentleman would rather not ask a question, I shall call someone else.
§ Mr. RossAs I am on my feet, may I ask the Secretary of State to give an assurance that priority will be given to management buy-outs if the privatisation scheme has to go through? I do not believe that it will go through, because I do not think that there will be as many buyers for the companies as the right hon. Gentleman expects.
§ Mr. RidleyI look forward to having the hon. Gentleman in our Lobby on that point, if on no other, when we reach that clause in the Bill. When I was Financial Secretary to the Treasury, I was happy to seek provisions in a Finance Bill to help employees borrow money with tax relief for that very purpose. I hope that those provisions will be helpful in this case.
§ Mr. RoweIs my right hon. Friend aware that in Maidstone in my constituency we run a successful local authority bus undertaking? When he considers the restructing of the NBC, will he work out why it is proposed that the Maidstone undertaking should have to declare itself a company long before the NBC locally has to do anything of the kind?
§ Mr. RidleyI know the point that my hon. Friend is making, but it is not quite like that. The National Bus Company will have to be organised into separate arm's length subsidiaries at the same time as the municipal operators, such as Maidstone, do exactly the same thing. The question of ownership involves a separate and later stage. Although we seek to privatise the National Bus Company subsidiaries, we are not seeking to privatise the municipal undertakings. Thus, I think that my hon. Friend will agree that there is nothing unfair about the timing, as the different sorts of company will have to be at arm's length.
§ Mrs. DunwoodyWhat criteria will the Secretary of State use in judging the viable size of the companies into which he wants the NBC to be broken down? What effect will it have on the municipal bus companies if the National Bus Company can run over certain routes because there is no protection? Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman accept that various stockbroker firms have given evidence to the NBC that there is a viable number of companies which is much larger than the 40 or 50 companies that he seems to demand?
§ Mr. RidleyCompetition will depend on what plans are put forward by the NBC in relation to the letter that I wrote it—which the hon. Lady has no doubt read, and knows intimately—in which I said that the first priority must be to consider how the bus industry can be made competitive. I am surprised that the hon. Lady, of all people, should proxy stockbrokers in aid of her argument. It is highly desirable to make competition the first requirement and to ensure that that competion is fair as between the private sector, the NBC subsidiaries, the municipals and the passenger transport executives.