HC Deb 25 February 1985 vol 74 cc6-7
5. Mr. Adley

asked the Secretary of State for Transport which cities he has taken as models for the style and extent of public service for fare stage bus services he expects to emerge upon enactment of the Transport Bill.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Michael Spicer)

Our proposals for the bus industry are based on a wide body of evidence from throughout the economy that the customer gets the best deal in a competitive market. This is certainly so in the city of Hereford.

Mr. Adley

I presume that there is no major city in the world that my hon. Friend can quote me as an example of where that policy may work. Having voted reluctantly for the Second Reading of the Bill, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that we need evidence that the Government's proposals can and will work? Otherwise, there is a danger that, if the outcome does not match the intention, some of our cities will become public transport deserts, as Los Angeles has done.

Mr. Spicer

We make no claims that these are not new and radical policies, but the present policies of protectionism, supported by more and more taxpayers' money, have failed. In 10 years the number of passengers on buses has fallen by 30 per cent., while in real terms the taxpayers' money spent on revenue support has increased thirteenfold. All the evidence from Hereford, from Guildford and from the express services points to the fact that our policies will give the industry and the travelling public much new hope.

Mr. Cartwright

The evidence from Hereford may give some indication of what deregulation may mean in the rural areas, but how can the hon. Gentleman claim that that provides any evidence about what deregulation may mean in the urban centres, which depend upon integrated bus services?

Mr. Spicer

Hereford and Guildford are cities, and there have been extensive studies in Guildford showing that there will be considerable savings to the taxpayer if our proposals are introduced there.

Mrs. Dunwoody

Is the Minister aware that the officers of Hereford city council were extremely worried by the environmental damage and that it was considered that 25 years of progress had been wiped out by that one short, chaotic experiment? The Minister cannot tell us of any major city in the world which operates such chaotic ideas. If it is such a marvellous scheme, why does he not intend to introduce it in London?

Mr. Spicer

The hon. Lady forgot one element in Hereford—the passengers. All the evidence in Hereford is that they are very satisfied with the experiment there.