Gibraltar

HC Deb 06 February 1985 vol 72 cc937-44 3.31 pm

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about the outcome of my meeting yesterday in Geneva with the Spanish Foreign Minister, Sr. Moran, about Gibraltar.

As I foreshadowed in my statement to the House on 28 November, our meeting marked the start of the restoration, after an interval of 15 years, of direct communications and the free movement of persons, vehicles and goods between Gibraltar and Spain. We have also started the negotiations that were envisaged by the Lisbon statement of April 1980. They are aimed at overcoming all of the differences between us on Gibraltar and at promoting co-operation between Gibraltar and Spain on a wide range of matters. In addition, Spaniards in Gibraltar and Gibraltarians in Spain will enjoy European Community rights in advance of Spanish accession to the Community.

Spanish, British and Gibraltarian officials will now meet to deal with several specific areas for practical cooperation. They include aviation, tourism and economic and cultural matters. The first such meeting begins this month. Mr. Moran specifically reaffirmed to me the undertaking set out in the Brussels communiqué that the Spanish Government will take the early actions necessary to allow safe and effective air communications in the region. Specific ideas for this are now under consideration.

Mr. Moran raised the subject of sovereignty at our meeting. He was entitled to do so under the terms of the Lisbon and Brussels statements. He also outlined informally to me some ideas on the subject and said that he will later make formal proposals. However, Mr. Moran underlined the importance that he attaches to the interests and feelings of the Gibraltar people when dealing with this issue. For my part, I made clear that the British Government's commitment to honour the freely and democratically expressed wishes of the Gibraltarian people, which is plainly set out in the preamble to the Gibraltar constitution, stands unchanged.

Sir Joshua Hassan, who has led his people so resolutely over many years of difficulty, participated at my side yesterday as a member of the British delegation. He subsequently described the meeting in Geneva as positive and constructive in every way, and expressed himself fully satisfied that the results are good for Gibraltar. I greatly valued his wise advice. I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying tribute to his courage, steadfastness and statesmanship.

The task ahead is to see that practical co-operation between Gibraltar and Spain develops in a way which will benefit both peoples and that Spain and the United Kingdom continue to manage our differences as befits friends and allies.

In conclusion, I should like to make quite clear to the House that this result is good for Britain, good for Spain and, above all, good for the people of Gibraltar whose wishes we are pledged to respect.

Mr. Denis Healey (Leeds, East)

I welcome the statement of the Foreign Secretary and the fact that the frontier is now open. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House will feel that it is important that the increase in contacts at the human level between Gibraltar and Spain and the close economic and cultural links which the Foreign Secretary foreshadowed should be able to reduce the fears and suspicions which have long tormented relations on both sides.

I am glad that the Foreign Secretary was able to tell us that Sr. Moran recognises the importance of the feelings and interests of the people of Gibraltar on this matter and has therefore made no formal approach on the question of sovereignty at this stage. He must recognise that there is widespread opposition on the rock, and there would be increased opposition if there were any pressure from the Spanish side for early negotiations on this matter. I hope that the Spanish Government also will consider the implications for any negotiations on the rock with regard to their own position in the Moroccan enclaves across the straits.

Nevertheless, I hope that all hon. Members will recognise that the existence of a strong democratic regime in Spain after so many years — a regime which, moreover, will join Britain in the Community in the very near future — increases the importance of developing links at every level between Gibraltar and Spain.

May I ask the Foreign Secretary two specific questions? First, can he tell us yet which civil servant will be responsible for pursuing the course which he has described to us this afternoon? Secondly, has the Prime Minister now any plans for visiting Madrid? The Foreign Secretary will be aware that she is the only Prime Minister of a community country who has not yet visited the capital of Spain.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

She has been everywhere else.

Mr. Healey

I must confess to my hon. Friend that my suggestion was not wholly without concern for assuring that there is no disagreement between the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary on this matter as so unfortunately occurred during the negotiations on Hong Kong.

Finally, I hope that the precedent of better relations with Spain will be followed by seeking better relations with another democratic regime in another hispanic country which also maintains historic claims to sovereignty over a British colony.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. There is no parallel between the case of Gibraltar and that of the Falkland Islands. They are historically, legally and constitutionally quite different. Perhaps the most important difference is that Spain recognises the validity of our title under the treaty of Utrecht whereas Argentina refuses to acknowledge our sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. Spain's attitude to the rights of the inhabitants of Gibraltar is also markedly different. Spain is an ally in NATO and a prospective partner in the European Community and has publicly stated that it intends to pursue its claim by peaceful means. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that is in total contrast with the historical, geographical and constitutional position of the Falkland Islands. Our position in relation to the Falkland Islands remains unchanged.

The discussions between Spain and the United Kingdom will be monitored by civil servants on both sides at suitably senior level, subject to my direction on behalf of the Government.

As for possible visits, at this stage I say only that the agreement reached in Brussels and its implementation from yesterday plainly opens up prospects of visits far more clearly than has been the case thus far.

Sir Peter Blaker (Blackpool, South)

I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on the part that he has played in ensuring that the border was finally opened. We hope that tourism will benefit from that, but does he agree that the main economic enterprise in Gibraltar remains the dockyard? Does he agree that it would be most helpful to good relations between Spain and Gibraltar if the Spaniards sent some ships to that yard for repair?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his congratulations. He was right to draw attention to tourism as being perhaps the most important component of economic growth in and around Gibraltar. Nevertheless, the dockyard remains important. I am glad to be able to tell the House that in the first nearly two months of its existence as a commercial yard it has got off to a very good start, that 500 people are now employed there and that the management expects a substantial increase in that number in the months ahead. A significant number of craft have passed through the yard. I am sure that the Spanish Government and, perhaps more important, Spanish commercial interests will appreciate the importance of the point made by my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber)

I congratulate the Foreign Secretary on a well balanced and fair statement which safeguards the democratic wishes of Gibraltarians and paves the way for better relations with Spain. So why is Mr. Joe Bossano getting so excited?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his congratulations. As he will know, there are circumstances in which Opposition parties do not always take the same view as the Government of the day. I believe that the developments likely to take place in Gibraltar in the months and years ahead are likely to be seen as so much to the advantage of the people of Gibraltar that the understandable anxiety that now exists in Gibraltar—I seek in no way to diminish its significance—will respond to the practical consequences of the steps that we have taken.

Mr. Michael Latham (Rutland and Melton)

I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's achievement and that of Sir Joshua Hassan. In telling the Department that the Government stand firm on the commitment to the Gibraltar constitution, will my right hon. and learned Friend stress that in no circumstances will the House of Commons permit any retreat from that position?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I have made it quite plain, not just in the Department where it has always been abundantly plain but to the Spanish Foreign Minister and the people of Gibraltar throughout the negotiations, that the commitment set out in the Gibraltar constitution stands without qualification and is of the utmost importance. One of the most important features of the negotiations has been the extent to which that has been wisely and practically acknowledged by Spanish Government spokesmen.

Mr. Tom Clarke (Monklands, West)

Does the Foreign Secretary agree that on an important constitutional matter the view of every opposition is important? In view of the narrow margin between the parties in Gibraltar, what consideration was given to the views of Mr. Joe Bossano?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I agree that one should not disregard the view of any opposition in a parliamentary democracy. When one discusses a matter of such importance with a democratically based community such as Gibraltar, it is right to pay attention to the views expressed by the democratically elected Chief Minister. He offered wide and sustained advice throughout the matter, and has been responsible for carrying through the Gibraltar legislature the necessary measures, which he has done. That is the right way to handle such an issue. I am grateful for the support and advice that I have received from Sir Joshua Hassan.

Sir Antony Buck (Colchester, North)

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that most Conservative Members will wish to congratulate him on what has been achieved and, even more, on the responsible attitude adopted by Sir Joshua Hassan and many people in Gibraltar. Will my right hon. and learned Friend say a word about the defence implications of the agreement, and confirm that Gibraltar will continue under the new set-up to be an important factor in our defence of that part of the Mediterranean?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for his opening remarks and endorse what he said about Sir Joshua Hassan. The defence component of Gibraltar remains important. One of the points touched on in the Brussels communiqué was the possibility of discussions on military matters with the Spanish Government. That has not arisen yet, and a number of other questions in the NATO context do not arise in the present circumstances.

Mr. John David Taylor (Strangford)

Although most hon. Members will welcome the Government's position, which honours the freely and democratically expressed wishes of the Gibraltarians, they must be worried that in the statement the Secretary of State made a distinction between our Government's position and the position of the Spanish Foreign Minister. Will he explain further the distinction that he made when he went out of his way to say that the Spanish Government simply and merely attaches importance to the interests and feelings of the Gibraltar people? That is certainly not recognising their democratic rights.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

It is right to acknowledge the extent to which the Spanish Government, founded, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) pointed out, on the basis of a democratic constitution, and democratically elected, recognise the importance of Gibraltar's democratic institutions. Some time ago, Sr Moran observed: If they gave me Gibraltar on a plate against the will of the Gibraltarians it would not be a good deal for Spain. That is an important recognition of the importance of the wishes and interests of the Gibraltarians. I take the opportunity of paying tribute to Sr Moran's contribution to the negotiations. I repeat that our commitment as set out in the 1969 constitution stands unqualified.

Mr. Nicholas Soames (Crawley)

Clearly the House will wish to congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend and Sr Moran on the positive way in which the talks have begun. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that clearing the air on this matter will facilitate Spain's entry into the European Community, and also enable it to continue its membership of NATO?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's opening remarks. We attach importance to Spain's continued membership of NATO and its accession to the Community. I hope that the agreements that we reached on this matter will help to sustain both those things. It was also important for us to reach a conclusion on these matters bilaterally between our two countries to establish a cooperative atmosphere and to make it plain that it was not in any sense being agreed upon in the course of securing agreement to Spain's entry to the Community.

Mr. Eric S. Heifer (Liverpool, Walton)

Does the Foreign Secretary agree that congratulations are due both to him and, more important, to the democratic Government in Spain who have acted intelligently throughout the discussions? Is it not clear that in the long run the question of sovereignty must be settled through negotiations with Spain? Is it not also clear that Joe Bossano has much in common with Felipe Gonzalez if we could only get the two people together and discuss the matter in such a way that Gibraltar could be considered as part of the new approach of the Spanish Government towards devolved government in Spain, which is in line with their Socialist policies?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I repeat my tribute to the way in which the Spanish Government, democratically elected as they are, have approached this matter. The fact that the border is now open, and that there is an atmosphere in which good contacts and personal and social relationships are likely to be established, may lead to all sorts of changes of mind on both sides of the border. I cannot predict what course those will take, save to reaffirm our commitment to the wishes of the Gibraltar people as set out in the 1969 constitution.

Mr. John Stokes (Halesowen and Stourbridge)

My right hon. and learned Friend will know how much I admire his efforts as Foreign Secretary, and how much I oppose the ignorant attacks on the Foreign Office. But ordinary people are puzzled by the talks with Spain about Gibraltar. They say, "If we have no intention of surrendering the sovereignty of Gibraltar to Spain, why have the talks at all?"

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The answer to his question is that the sovereignty of Gibraltar has been at issue between the Spanish and British Governments for many years. It has overshadowed and made much more difficult the conduct of relations between those Governments. It has created conditions that have made the prospect of social and economic prosperity for Gibraltar much more difficult. The agreement that we have reached is that the topic can be discussed by the two Governments on the firm basis that I have outlined of our continued commitment to respect the wishes of the Gibraltar people. From that can flow nothing but advantage. As I said in my opening statement, it is a good agreement for Britain, for Spain and for the people of Gibraltar.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)

With regard to the Foreign Secretary's reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on the historical differences between Gibraltar and the Falklands, does the Foreign Secretary accept that he is making a serious criticism of his hon. Friends and mine on the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, who expressed the gravest doubts about the legal and historical background? Does he dismiss the Select Committee? What is his attitude to it?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The hon. Gentleman will have many opportunities to discuss the Falkland Islands, but that subject does not arise from this statement. It would be wrong for me to swap views with the hon. Gentleman now. I raised the subject in answer to a question from the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). I answered his question by saying that the two matters are completely different.

Mr. Andrew MacKay (Berkshire, East)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise that his statement today, together with his efforts and those of Sr Moran and Sir Joshua Hassan, will be broadly supported by the great majority of hon. Members? Will he confirm that top of the agenda for the talks will be allowing more flights into Gibraltar as soon as possible.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's opening remarks. As I said in my statement, and as was set out in the Brussels agreement, the Spanish Government reaffirm their commitment to take the early action necessary to ensure the safe and effective use of airspace in the region.

Mr. David Young (Bolton, South-East)

Honourable Members on both sides of the House will be grateful if we can reconcile the three conflicting points of view. Before we sink into a swamp of self-congratulation, may I point out that many Gibraltarians believe that they are being sold out the back door economically, if not politically? What will the Foreign Secretary do to consult the official Opposition on this matter? Does he recognise that Spain is again playing on the fact that Gibraltar is still a colony? Would not one of the options be to offer self-government if the aspirations of the Gibraltar people were not satisfied?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

As to consultation with the Opposition, the hon. Gentleman will have noticed that these matters have been the subject of frequent debate in the Gibraltar Legislative Assembly, and that has been the background against which the Chief Minister of Gibraltar has been playing his part in these negotiations.

As to self-government, the treaty of Utrecht, on which our sovereignty is founded, contains in it a provision to the effect that, in the event of the United Kingdom wishing to give up sovereignty, Spain should have first refusal. It has been clear, and was emphasised, for example, by Sir Joshua Hassan in London last Wednesday that the choice for the people of Gibraltar is either to remain under British sovereignty or to move under Spanish sovereignty. There is no third option under the provisions of the treaty. In that context, we emphasise the importance that we attach to the pledge to respect the wishes of the Gibraltar people.

As to the hon. Gentleman's accusation of a sell-out, economically if not politically, the state of affairs in Gibraltar up to now has been nothing but bad for the Gibraltar economy. It has involved an outflow of money across the border of about £150,000 a week, about £16 million in the past two years. As a result of the changes that came into force yesterday, the prospects for economic prosperity for the people of Gibraltar and the region have been substantially improved.

Mr. Mark Wolfson (Sevenoaks)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the future of the Gibraltar economy will increasingly depend on the ability of the Gibraltarians to develop it? To this end, will he give what support he can to the establishment and development of some basic further education in Gibraltar? At this stage, this is very limited, which means that the necessary skills for the future are not being developed?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I take note of that specific point without making any comment about it. My hon. Friend is right in the premise of his question, that the prosperity of Gibraltar will depend on the enterprise of the people of Gibraltar, matched with the courage that they have always shown during the difficult years through which they have just passed.

Mr. Eric Deakins (Walthamstow)

Does Sr. Moran now fully appreciate that the only way for Spain to regain sovereignty over Gibraltar is for her to set out to win the hearts and minds of the people of that colony?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

That has been clearly stressed in the remarks that I quoted about the need for any negotiating process to have respect for the wishes of the people of Gibraltar. I underline that point.

Mr. James Couchman (Gillingham)

I would not wish to be unhelpful in the face of considerable diplomatic triumphs, but, like many other hon. Members, I am concerned to establish that the opening of the gate has merely returned the situation to that which pertained for many years, and that it does not represent a step towards ceding Gibraltar to the Spanish. Therefore, will my right hon. and learned Friend remember that many Gibraltarians are able to trace their ancestry back to this country for many generations?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I assure my hon. Friend that I have been mindful throughout of the factors to which he has drawn attention, and that in all these matters we have been concerned not just with finding a conclusion that will promote good relations between Spain and Britain but in paying attention to the interests of the people of Gibraltar. I have no doubt that this agreement is in their interests, and it is underpinned by my repeated emphasis on the continued validity of the preamble to the 1969 constitution.

Mr. Jim Craigen (Glasgow, Maryhill)

Having arrived in Gibraltar with a parliamentary delegation on the day that the Brussels communiqué was announced, may I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he will take it from me that there is considerable mistrust of Spanish officialdom in Gibraltar? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that he will do more to reassure the official socialist opposition and the official democratic opposition in Gibraltar that they need not be equally distrustful of the intentions of the Foreign Office?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I take this opportunity to tell the House that there is no question of the Foreign Office adopting a separate position or policy over this matter. The decisions taken by the Foreign Secretary on behalf of Her Majesty's Government are taken not out of any consideration for Foreign Office interests but because we judge them to be in the best interests of Spain and Britain and of the people of Gibraltar. I well understand that, in the light of the experience of the last 15 years, there is bound to be some mistrust of officialdom of the kind that the hon. Member described on the Spanish side of the border. There is mistrust not just of officialdom but elsewhere. One of the benefits of opening the border will be the gradual dissolution of that mistrust and the improvement of the economic prospects of the people of Gibraltar.

Sir Kenneth Lewis (Stamford and Spalding)

Is it not clear that this is a splendid agreement, because one can now buy whisky in Gibraltar at £3.50 a bottle? Will my right hon. and learned Friend have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order to find out whether that price can be emulated here?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I hesitate to respond favourably to my hon. Friend's invitation to job back in my previous existence in this House.

Mr. Healey

If the Foreign Secretary rejects the Falklands as a precedent for Gibraltar, does he accept the view of King Juan Carlos of Spain and of his colleague the Spanish Foreign Minister that Hong Kong may provide a useful precedent?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I would counsel the right hon. Gentleman against following that course. He must remember very clearly that British sovereignty over Gibraltar is plainly founded upon the treaty of Utrecht without any limit to its term. That is in total contrast to Hong Kong where 92 per cent. is held on a lease that is due to expire in 1997. I would not encourage the right hon. Gentleman to go down that road.