HC Deb 18 December 1985 vol 89 cc342-6 6.11 pm
Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would welcome your advice on how we can protect the reputation of this House from what I feel is a serious distortion and misrepresentation of what happened yesterday. You were in the Chair during last night's important debate on Members' interests. I seek your advice on a press release—which may be in contempt of the House—that was issued by the leader of the Liberal party. It is entitled "Double standards anger Steel", but I should point out that the release seems to be devoid of any standards whatsoever. In it the right hon. Gentleman states: MPs voted … against a call by Mr. Steel and SDP leader Dr. David Owen for the amounts earned to be declared in the register.

Will you confirm, Mr. Speaker, that in making this important clarion call, neither the leader of the Liberal party not the leader of the SDP voted, spoke or even appeared in the Chamber? Will you also confirm—because this is important for the standing of this House—that the only member of the alliance who did speak had not even signed the amendment that he regarded as being of such importance? Will you further confirm that, when it came to a vote on sanctions to implement the register, a mere handful of alliance Members were among the 128 who voted in favour of it?

The right hon. Gentleman also says in the press release that we apply different standards and that "they"—the House but not he or his party— did vote for a register for journalists and broadcasters". Will you confirm that not one alliance voice was raised against that motion and that not one alliance vote was registered against that motion? Is not the right hon. Gentleman deliberately overlooking the fact that the House unanimously agreed to ask the Select Committee to investigate as a matter of urgency the declaration of amounts?

The press statement ends by accusing the rest of us of damaging the standing of parliamentary democracy". Would not you agree, Mr. Speaker, that the leader of the Liberal party has done a grave disservice to this House and that his distortion has damaged the standing of the House of Commons and parliamentary democracy? Out of respect for you, Mr. Speaker, I shall not call the leader of the Liberal party a pathetic hypocrite, but I am entitled to my thoughts.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Let me deal with one thing at a time. It was my impression that last night's debate—I am sure that anyone who was present and heard it would agree—was in the best traditions of our parliamentary debates—

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am on my feet. As to what was said and who voted or did not vote, that is all recorded in Hansard and in the Votes and Proceedings of the House. It is not a matter for me.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. A right hon. Member of this House has issued a press release complaining about action that is damaging to this House, even though he was not present and did not vote. I understand that he and his right hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) were appearing on television and earning fees. Such behaviour is bad for this House. We are used to being misrepresented by the Liberals within our constituencies, but surely you can do something to protect the reputation of this House.

Several Hon. Members

rose—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Hon. Members should not wave order papers at me. I am not responsible as Speaker of this House for press releases that are issued. That is not a matter for me.

Mr. David Steel (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale)

I shall happily supply you, Mr. Speaker, with a copy of the press release, and I am sure that you will find nothing in it that is out of order. However, there is another tradition in the House—

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

What about the British School of Motoring? Declare your interest.

Mr. Steel

—that if one hon. Member raises an attack against another, he gives notice. I received no such notice, but nevertheless word reached me.

I do not raise with you a point of order as to why the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), in whose name last night's motion stood, did not vote; neither do I ask where the leader of the Labour party or the leader of the Conservative party were. The hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) has given the game away. They are consumed with jealousy because my right hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) and I were at 10 o'clock last night appearing live on ITN—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. A point is being made to me, but I cannot hear it.

Mr. Steel

In response to sedentary interjections, I should add that we did so without fee, which would have been declared had their been one. As for only one member of the alliance speaking, I am not aware that it is normal for more than one member of our party to be called. As for those who voted on the amendment last night, 64 per cent. of members of the alliance parties were present but only 22 per cent. of members of the Labour party.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Skinner

rose—

Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark (Birmingham, Selly Oak)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am on my feet. This is a Back-Bench day and many Back Benchers wish to speak in the debate. It would be perfectly legitimate to raise these matters during the next debate when hon. Members may put it to the Leader of the House that the House should not adjourn until we have debated Members' interests all over again. We cannot have a re-run of last night's debate during points of order. I am not prepared to allow that.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

If it is a point of order.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark

Will the House not hear points of order?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member can raise a point of order, but we must not have a re-run of last night's debate.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark

I do not want a re-run.

Mr. Speaker

I shall hear the point of order.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark

I would never challenge your judgment, Mr. Speaker, as you know. I wish only to ask for your humble guidance. [Interruption.] It is a small humbleness, then.

I want to ask what you meant, Mr. Speaker by the "best traditions" of parliamentary debates, in which most hon. Members fully believe. I thought that, on a private Member's day, if hon. Members put their name to a motion and that motion is then called in this honourable House, as two of the so-called leaders of the so-called alliance were, it would be more proper if they were here attending to their duties and your call, Mr. Speaker, instead of earning seventy-five quid plus a taxi fare.

Mr. Skinner

rose

Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) has given me notice that he wishes to raise a point of order.

Mr. Davies

I wish to raise a different matter relating to events yesterday before the cause of the points of order which have been brought to your attention, Mr. Speaker. I draw your attention to the remarks recorded in column 161 of Hansard during the exchange between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore). In replying to a question by my hon. Friend, the Chancellor stated: He poses"— referring to my hon. Friend— as the man who got things moving … Listen to this He did not even start—Hansard will show that this is so—his seemingly unending series of allegations until after my statement of 17 July informing the House that the fraud squad had already been called in."—[Official Report, 17 December 1985; Vol. 89, c. 161.] There is a clear implication in the Chancellor's statement that when he made his statement on 17 July he had not been pressed, encouraged or questioned by any other hon. Member. That is not true.

On 23 October 1984, my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) raised questions with the Chancellor. On 11 November 1984, my hon. Friend raised a question with the Attorney-General and called on him to request an inquiry by the fraud squad. Other hon. Members, including the Opposition spokesperson, my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald), and my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch raised questions with the Chancellor. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock wrote to the Prime Minister asking her to set up a special committee of inquiry. The reply to that letter was made five days before the Chancellor's statement. The Prime Minister declined that request for a special inquiry.

I submit that yesterday's events, as recorded in Hansard, are inaccurate. They clearly show the Chancellor's intention to imply that he had not been pressed by other hon. Members into taking action on the banking allegations. Will you use your good offices, Mr. Speaker, to encourage the Chancellor to make a statement in the House so that the record can be put straight?

Mr. Speaker

What I can confirm is that Hansard faithfully recorded what was said in the House. I accept that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), who raised a point of order on this subject, reminded the House that he had tabled a question on 23 October. I am sorry that I did not manage to fit the hon. Member for Bolsover—

Mr. Skinner

It was 1984—that is the important point.

Mr. Speaker

—into questions yesterday.

Mr. Skinner

I know that.

Mr. Speaker

I said to him that, by good fortune, this subject had come up in the ballot for the Consolidation Fund debate. I gave him an undertaking that he would be called in the debate.

Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry that I have to make this point. Yesterday, I was the first Member—I do not wish to discuss Members' interests; I am raising a point of order—to raise with you, immediately after the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) had sat down, the question of the absence of the six right hon. and hon. Members. You said to me—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have dealt with that matter. We cannot discuss it further. Is the hon. Member referring to the debate on Members' interests?

Mr. Adley

I am referring to what you said to me yesterday afternoon during the points of order.

Mr. Speaker

We dealt with that yesterday afternoon.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You referred to the fact that Hansard faithfully records the truth. Will you confirm that Hansard records that the Liberals did not call an amendment yesterday for compulsory registration of Members' interests? Hansard records only an expression of belief in recommendations and makes no reference to compulsory registration. The amendment on compulsory registration was mine and it was not backed by the leader of the Liberal party or the leader of the Social Democratic party. Will you confirm that point for those outside?

Mr. Speaker

I can confirm that the Liberal party, as the House well knows, tabled three amendments yesterday. I was able to select only one for debate. I can confirm also what the hon. Member says about his amendment.

Mr. Skinner

rose

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Skinner, as a compensation for yesterday.

Mr. Skinner

If I or any other hon. Member wanted to raise the issue of double standards with respect to the leader of the Liberal party or the leader of the Social Democratic party, there is a way of doing so, as you have said, Mr. Speaker. An hon. Member can write to the Privileges Committee. I should like to know as briefly as possible whether, in writing that letter, any Member who is making an application can refer—if these declarations must be made—to a Member's interests? For example, would the hon. Member for Stockton South (Mr. Wrigglesworth) have to declare all his directorships? Would the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) have to declare that he is a representative for Encyclopaedia Britannica? Could we refer to the Japanese car that was loaned for several months to the leader of the Liberal party? Could we find out the amount of the golden handshake that went to the last leader of the Social Democratic party? Could we write in that letter that, although the alliance calls for the elimination of interests, between them the SDP and the Liberal party have 23 moonlighting jobs?

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps I can clear up this matter for the benefit of the whole House. If there are such allegations, the proper course is for the hon. Member concerned to write to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Members' Interests.

Mr. David Penhaligon (Truro)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you confirm the idea that Hansard is accurate and records what happens in the House? Will you confirm that, in the 31 Divisions this parliamentary year, the leader of the Liberal party has voted 18 times and the leader of the Labour party 13 times? Do you agree that Parliament can only work if hon. Members come to the Chamber?

Mr. Speaker

I shall take Hansard and study it during the Christmas Recess.