HC Deb 11 December 1985 vol 88 cc903-5
2. Mr. Strang

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his policy towards the proposal by the Scottish teachers' unions for an independent pay review.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. George Younger)

There is no substitute for direct negotiation among the parties involved. Pay cannot be considered in isolation from a proper reappraisal of the duties for which teachers are paid: and Parliament has set up machinery within which these matters ought to be resolved.

Mr. Strang

Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge the disastrous situation in our schools? Surely he recognises that after 18 months of action, including 12 months of strike action, the teachers are more determined than ever. Without a new Government offer, the forthcoming examinations will be disrupted and teachers are talking seriously about intensifying their action right up to the general election.

Regardless of whether the front page story in The Guardian today is true, will the Secretary of State make it clear to the Prime Minister that if an independent pay review will settle the position in England and Wales as well as in Scotland, it will be so much the better? Will he tell her, above all, that we must have a settlement in Scotland, and have it soon?

Mr. Younger

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman's last point. What is required is for the parties involved to get together and negotiate a settlement, which I believe is possible, given good will. I agree absolutely with the hon. Gentleman about the disastrous situation in Scottish schools, but it is no use calling on me to take an initiative to resolve the matter. I have already produced two initiatives, both of which were rejected. It is time that someone else had a shot.

Mr. Hirst

May I take the opportunity to remind my right hon. Friend that many professionally committed teachers who are striking for more pay nevertheless accept that it is reasonable to look for more realistic conditions of employment? Will he assure me that in the eventual resolution of the disputes there will be an amendment to the conditions of employment that will prevent the frustration of curriculum development and in-service training?

Mr. Younger

I agree with my hon. Friend. I accept absolutely that most teachers feel extremely strongly about what they regard as the inadequate way in which they are treated and paid. I have accepted that all along. Perhaps my hon. Friend will agree that the saddest feature is that, in spite of that being recognised, the teachers do not appear to be willing to move. I hope that they will now consider that carefully.

Mr. Canavan

Is the Secretary of State oblivious to the fact that last Thursday's strike affected nearly every school in Scotland and that nearly 1 million Scottish pupils are being continuously affected by the Secretary of State's failure to find a just solution to the dispute? Is the Secretary of State aware that at the rally on Thursday in George square, Glasgow, attended by 10,000 Scottish teachers, some placards proclaimed that some of the teachers had been Tory supporters? Even they are now supporting strike action as a last resort in pursuit of their legitimate demand for an independent pay review.

Mr. Younger

No one is in any doubt that a large number of pupils and schools were affected by the so-called industrial action last week. It is distressing that parents are becoming more and more concerned. They are writing to us asking why there cannot be some solution which includes ensuring that this sort of nonsense can never happen again, to the detriment of their children.

Mrs. McCurley

Will my right hon. Friend comment on the role of the employers in the teachers' strike, because in my opinion their voice has been distinctly muted?

Mr. Younger

I appreciate my hon. Friend's view. The employers made it clear at the beginning that they agreed with the teachers. The employers have always been different from the teachers in that they believe that any review of pay alone would be incomplete. They are equally certain that there must be a reassessment of conditions of service for teachers if any lasting solution is to be found.

Mr. Maclennan

Does the Secretary of State realise that by dismissing the teachers' action as "this sort of nonsense" he shows his failure to come to grips with the seriousness of the problem? Since it took him about six months to produce his first negative response to the proposal for an independent pay review — which suggested that he was not opposed to it in principle—will he reconsider now, like his colleagues in the English Department?

Mr. Younger

The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that I said that the teachers' case was nonsense. I have never said that. I have always acknowledged that the teachers feel strongly about their case. I said that it was nonsense to treat children in a cavalier manner by harming their exam prospects. That is nonsense, unacceptable and unworthy of the profession.

Mr. Michael Forsyth

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the problem with the dispute is that the real victims—the schoolchildren—have no votes and no say in the matter? Does he agree that the teachers have conducted the dispute at minimum cost to themselves? Will he therefore consider representations from parents who say that the dispute cannot be allowed to continue? If the employers will not act against the teachers, will my right hon. Friend consider taking powers so that he can?

Mr. Younger

I agree with my hon. Friend's general comments. I do not have the power to take such action, as I do not employ teachers. They are employed by the employers. I agree that parents will now require as a further outcome of the dispute, not merely a solution that will satisfy the teachers and their fears about remuneration and so on, but a settlement which includes a reasonable guarantee that such disruption of schools can never happen again at no cost to the teachers.

Mr. Ewing

Will the Secretary of State be more forthcoming and admit openly and honestly that he is the employer of the teachers and that he alone is standing between the teachers, the children, the parents and a settlement of the damaging dispute?

Does the Secretary of State accept that the teachers have shown good-will in suspending all industrial action until after Christmas? Does he agree that if the Government do not react we shall be heading straight for an all-out strike? Has the Secretary of State been attending the meetings with Lord Whitelaw, the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Prime Minister? If he has, does he expect to make a statement before the Christmas recess with propositions to resolve the damaging dispute?

Mr. Younger

If I had been the teachers' employer, many matters would have been made much easier in the past few months. One problem has been that employers have not felt able to exert pressure on the teachers to be more reasonable in their demands. Twice I have made major moves in the direction of the teachers, including finding a large sum of money—additional to anything that the employers had offered—to try to resolve the dispute. No similar move has been forthcoming from the teachers. I would of course deplore an all-out strike, but at least that would commit the teachers, as they would then have to suffer some financial penalty instead of putting it all on to the children, as they have been doing up to now.

Mr. Donald Stewart

If the Secretary of State refuses to take the initiative in Scotland, will he try to interest the Prime Minister, who apparently is taking some initiative over the English teachers' strike? Or does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Prime Minister regards Scotland as a far off country of which she knows nothing, remembering that she referred to the constituency of the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Malone) as the far north?

Mr. Younger

I can answer the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing) by saying that I am involved in all meetings about the teachers' disputes, north and south of the border.