HC Deb 11 December 1985 vol 88 cc907-10
4. Mr. Tom Clarke

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he proposes to make an official visit to the Gartcosh steelworks; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Younger

I have no plans at present to do so.

Mr. Clarke

Is the Secretary of State aware that it might do him a whole lot of good to visit Gartcosh, if only because a change of company might be helpful? Is he aware also that if he ever meets the men and women of Gartcosh he will find that they are people who say what they mean and mean what they say? They would never be a party to the disgraceful betrayal which we witnessed in the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs this morning, which was a contribution to the pantomime season and a disgrace to Scotland? Will he accept that the men and women of Gartcosh believe that they have a future and that Ravenscraig has a future and that Scottish Members are determined to fight for that future, in the knowledge that they have the overwhelming support of the Scottish people?

Mr. Younger

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the views and feelings of those who live or work in the area around Gartcosh. One of the most distressing features of the controversy over the past few months is that those people have been faced with tremendous uncertainty. I cannot make any comment upon a Select Committee of which I am not a member.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, whatever happens in the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, the Committee can make recommendations only? If the members of the Committee, who represent different parties, are unable to make up their minds and agree to a positive resolution, they cannot make recommendations. The decisions that are made for Scotland are made by my right hon. Friend and his ministerial colleagues and they decided, in conjunction with the decision of the Prime Minister, to keep Ravenscraig open for three years. That deliberate policy decision was put into effect. When the time comes for that decision to be reviewed, it will be necessary to make another political decision.

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said. As he will appreciate, I can make no comment on anything to do with the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs.

Mr. Lambie

No wonder the Secretary of State is not to pay an official visit to Gartcosh or Ravenscraig. I give the warning that those areas should be the last ones that he should visit. Is he aware that in spite of the determined attempt by myself as Chairman of the Select Committee and Opposition Members to reach a compromise that would not be averse to our principles and would be agreeable to Conservative Members —[Interruption.] Despite my determined attempts as Chairman to achieve a compromise agreement — an agreement which I thought was accepted by the responsible Government Members of the Select Committee—it has been decided that no report will be published. Had the Secretary of State any say in the decision that was reached by the Tory Members of the Select Committee? Did he interfere at the end of the discussions? [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I understand from the Chairman of the Select Committee that the minutes are to be published today. Once that order has been given, it is in order for the minutes to be referred to.

Mr. Younger

First, the hon. Member for Cunninghame, South (Mr. Lambie) is not correct. I did not say that I refused to visit Gartcosh or Ravenscraig—I merely said that I had no present plans to visit Gartcosh. Secondly, as the hon. Gentleman is the Chairman of the Select Committee, he is responsible to the House for the Committee's conduct and he can perhaps answer for that conduct better than anyone else. Thirdly, may I make it perfectly clear, as I should have thought my conduct this afternoon had done, that I have had absolutely nothing to do with anything that the Select Committee has done.

Mr. Fairbairn

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that there are those in the House, who are not necessarily on the other side of the House, who hold a genuine view that the future of Ravenscraig may be gravely compromised by the continuance of Gartcosh? Having listened to the evidence, are we not entitled to reach a conclusion that differs from that of the Chairman of the Select Committee?

Mr. Younger

I very much appreciate my hon. and learned Friend's comments, but that just leaves me in the same position of saying that if, and when, the Select Committee produces any views, I look forward to reading them.

Dr. Godman

Is not Gartcosh steel, which is of high quality, used in the construction of submarines? Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on his failure to persuade his ministerial colleagues to place new submarine orders with Scott Lithgow and/or Yarrow?

Mr. Younger

The hon. Gentleman should not believe everything that he reads in the newspapers. No decisions of that sort have yet been taken.

Sir Hector Monro

Does my right hon. Friend accept that those hon. Members who worked hard to achieve a compromise in the Select Committee found it most disappointing that a majority voted against it?

Mr. Younger

I note what my hon. Friend says, but that is a matter for the Chairman of the Select Committee.

Mr. Wilson

Despite the bumbling political ineptitude displayed in the Select Committee this morning, and in view of the Quisling-like behaviour of some members of that Committee, will the Secretary of State take the lead in reviewing the evidence for the retention of Gartcosh——

Mr. Speaker

Order. We never refer to each other in the Chamber as Quislings. The hon. Member should use another word.

Mr. Wilson

If reference to that good Norwegian expression is riot allowed, may I substitute the word treachery?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is just as bad. Come on.

Mr. Wilson

If I must withdraw the word Quisling, may I substitute the word treacherous? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]

Mr. Speaker

Order. It is important in these highly charged matters to keep the temperature down. Will the hon. Member use a more acceptable word please?

Mr. Wilson

In full deference to your views, Mr. Speaker, but not concealing my own, I withdraw that term.

Mr. Younger

On the question concerning the Select Committee, that is a matter for the Committee's Chairman.

Mr. Parris

Although it must be right to try to create real new jobs in the Gartcosh area, what purpose can it serve for the Scottish Office to spend £1 million of taxpayers' money poaching 300 jobs from Belper in my constituency to create 300 jobs near Gartcosh?

Mr. Younger

I am sure that no one would wish to poach jobs from anywhere else. I can only say that it has often been done to us in the opposite direction.

Mr. George Robertson

Is the Secretary of State aware of how carefully the people of Lanarkshire have listened to the soft words and assurances from Conservative Members about the future of Ravenscraig? The people also launched the overwhelming bulk of evidence put to the Select Committee showing that there is an inextricable link between Gartcosh and the future of Ravenscraig. Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore realise that a sense of betrayal, dismay and anger will be felt in the west of Scotland today when they realise that the same Conservative Members have sold out on so much of what they said in the past?

Mr. Younger

I do not know how the hon. Gentleman knows that, because, like me, he is not on the Select Committee.

Mr. Neil Hamilton

Does my right hon. Friend agree that over the years too many decisions about the British Steel Corporation have been taken on political rather than economic grounds? The effect of that has been to divert scarce resources from more to less profitable and efficient uses. That has resulted in the corporation's impoverishment and has made job security more rather than less precarious.

Mr. Younger

I agree that in the past wrong political decisions have made greater problems for the steel industry than there would otherwise have been. The Government's role is to take the most strategic decisions and to leave the industry's management to run it in the best way that it can.

Mr. O'Neill

If the Secretary of State were to go to Gartcosh he might find out from the workers and the management that Gartcosh has many satisfied customers for its products, not least Carron Steelyne in my constituency. In The Engineer magazine it has said that it has no confidence that any other United Kingdom supplier will ensure the quality or delivery times that it received from Gartcosh. It would be put into some difficulty were it to have to find another supplier within the United Kingdom, because it does not have confidence that other parts of BSC will produce what it requires.

Mr. Younger

I understand that point, but it is a matter for the British Steel Corporation. Its view is that it will be able to meet its customers' demands with the plans that it has.

Mr. Michael Forsyth

Will my right hon. Friend note that the Select Committee voted down the Chairman's report because Opposition Members chose to vote it down as the Committee had received no evidence to enable it to come to the conclusion that the Gartcosh, steel mills should remain open? Will he therefore take an opportunity to visit Gartcosh or arrange for representatives of the SDA or elsewhere to visit it, to begin discussions with BSC (Industry) to create genuine and lasting jobs in businesses that have a future in that area, and not be diverted by the antics of Opposition Members?

Mr. Younger

I note what my hon. Friend says. It is worth mentioning that BSC (Industry) has already said that it is prepared to help in the Gartcosh area.