HC Deb 23 April 1985 vol 77 cc736-42
Q1. Mr. David Marshall

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 23 April.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with President Rene of the Seychelles.

Mr. Marshall

Will the Prime Minister confirm her cynical policy to reform the rating system before the next general election? In view of the disastrous situation now facing Scottish ratepayers, will she immediately authorise an emergency allocation of £100 million—only 1 per cent. of the cost of Trident—to ease their burden? Instead of visiting Singapore and Bali, will she visit Shettleston and Baillieston to see the consequences of her policy, or is she afraid to leave London and visit other parts of Britain?

The Prime Minister

I shall, of course, be going up to Scotland in May, as is customary. I cannot agree to the allocation of £100 million. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, we have made a special allocation to help the domestic ratepayer, who is particularly hard hit. I am aware that a number of commercial ratepayers are also particularly hard hit. If local authorities were to spend less, that would be a great help to ratepayers.

Mr. Steel

As the Secretary of State for Employment has given a cautious welcome to the setting up of the Employment Institute, and the chairman of the Conservative party has sought to belittle it, will the right hon. Lady say which of her colleagues' views she supports?

The Prime Minister

Everyone who can help to solve the problem in practical terms, as distinct from talking about it, is welcome. I hope that some of them will be able to create new businesses which, in practice, will create new jobs. In the meantime, I recognise that two of the suggestions which it has proposed which would help have already been put in hand by this Government. For example, it has proposed a cut in the employers' national insurance contribution, and that has already occurred. It has proposed an increase in the community programme, and that has already occurred. It would seem that we have a number of things in common.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern felt by some of us at the remark made by the Prime Minister of Malaysia during her recent visit that the Commonwealth is now just a sentimental attachment? Does she agree that it is a unique grouping of nations which, given the will, have the potential to play a major part in world development and peace?

The Prime Minister

Yes, I believe that the Commonwealth still has a role. It is a unique group of nations which girdle the world. We meet alternate years in conference, and there are regional conferences. I believe that that is valuable both politcally and economically and for technical co-operation. I believe that Malaysia, too, will find it valuable.

Mr. Rooker

Will the Prime Minister tell us why, after seven Conservative Budgets, workers on average earnings and half average earnings are paying a higher proportion of those earnings in tax and national insurance than under the previous Labour Government?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman tells only half the story. Were the rates of income tax and the structure as in 1979 when we took them over, people would be paying £6 billion more in income tax. The Conservative Government put up thresholds—that is, tax-free allowances—in real terms by 16 per cent., whereas the Labour Government put down tax-free allowances in real terms.

Q2. Mr. Adley

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 23 April.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Adley

Following the question from the leader of the Liberal party, will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that she is prepared to welcome any groups of new people who may have time to spare and be willing to put themselves forward for the study of a possible solution to the problem of unemployment? Will she endorse the statement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment concerning a group which may come up with new ideas and which, even if it does not, certainly at the beginning of its life should be given some sort of welcome?

The Prime Minister

I hope that I have indicated my view. We need new business, and anything that will assist in the formation of new business will be helpful. We are already considering a number of measures, including tax incentives. In particular, we are reducing the considerable number of regulations and examining planning permission. Anything that is conductive to the development of new business will certainly be very helpful.

Mr. Kinnock

The Prime Minister is now considering the report and recommendations of the review body on nurses' pay. Will the right hon. Lady give an undertaking that, as a matter of policy, she will support an award that at least will begin the return to the levels of real pay received by nurses in 1980? Will she also give an undertaking that in no circumstances will she finance any part of any award by taking money from the rest of the NHS?

The Prime Minister

Three reports arrived yesterday, including the report on nurses. We shall consider these reports together. I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman undertakings in advance of proper consideration. He will be aware that he will be the first to accuse me of increasing public expenditure if we do so. He knows that the Labour party wants increased public expenditure, but he will be the first to accuse us if it results in increased interest rates or increased taxation. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the levels of real pay received by nurses in 1980. He will therefore be very much aware that this Government have done much better by the nurses than the previous Labour Government.

Mr. Kinnock

The right hon. Lady, the country and the nurses will recall that that level was achieved because of the Clegg award, which the right hon. Lady opposed at the time but which had to be introduced because of the way in which she undertook during the general election campaign to take action. Can the right hon. Lady now tell me, without evasion, whether she agrees that public expenditure should be used to give justice and proper rewards to those who obviously deserve such rewards? Does the right hon. Lady think that the nurses are properly paid in 1985?

The Prime Minister

I noted what the right hon. Gentleman said about Clegg. This Government honoured the Clegg award. The previous Labour Government, not having the resources, made empty promises which they left us to honour. This Government honoured the nurses' award and reduced their working week from 40 hours to 37½ hours. This Government have found the resources for 57,000 extra nurses and midwives. The right hon. Gentleman has a nerve even to ask that question.

Mr. Richard Page

Is my right hon. Friend aware that her visit two weeks ago to the far east has been very much welcomed by British exporters? Would my right hon. Friend care to build on that by examining our overseas aid budget to ensure that it will generate the maximum activity at home, especially to create jobs? In particular, will my right hon. Friend consider increasing the overseas aid and trade provision?

The Prime Minister

My hon. Friend is correct. Exporters very much welcomed the visit. The visit to those regions was necessary. I cannot give an undertaking to increase the overseas aid budget or the overseas aid and trade provision. We must examine carefully the distribution of that aid to maximise the number of jobs that we can secure in this country from the expenditure of that money.

Q3. Mr. Terry Fields

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 23 April.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Fields

Will the Prime Minister admit that, despite her boast during her visit to semi-dictatorships in the far east that she saw off the miners, the miners' magnificent struggle for jobs has been the source of inspiration for those who are prepared to stand up and fight against unemployment, especially the young people and students who, supported by parents and teachers, will take strike action on Thursday against industrial conscription? In view of the fact that the right hon. Lady is prepared to introduce compulsory industrial conscription for 16-yearolds, is she prepared to give youth the vote at 16?

The Prime Minister

Although I tried to follow the hon. Gentleman's meanderings, what is painfully clear is that he supports strikes. In doing so, he defeats the prospects for getting export jobs for this country. Then he will assuredly complain about unemployment. I doubt whether he really wants to solve the unemployment problem. If he did, he would not support strikes; he would support action to prevent strikes.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

In view of the emphasis placed upon education by the Labour party during the current county council elections, will my right hon. Friend take time today to look at that party's recent education proposals? Will she note that the Labour party's commitment to additional resources is equalled by its commitment and pledge to do away with independent schools? Therefore, despite all that the Labour party says about the shortage of resources, it is planning for no increase in expenditure on state education.

The Prime Minister

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for so cogently making that point. As he will be aware, expenditure per pupil and the proportion of teachers to pupils in the state education system is at an all-time record under the Conservative Government. It is we who deliver the goods; it is the Labour party which does the talking.

Mr. Litherland

Does the Prime Minister agree that the increase in inflation, on top of the appalling level of unemployment, confirms that the Government's monetarist policies are not working and are bringing only misery and deprivation to this country, especially in the inner city areas?

The Prime Minister

No. I think that many of us would be quite glad to have had the level of inflation that we now have for a longer period. The hon. Gentleman will recall that under the Labour Government inflation went up to 27 per cent. and that it fundamentally undermined the social as well as the financial fabric of this country.

As for unemployment, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have achieved record output, a record standard of living and record investment. We have a very considerable unemployment problem, but the answer to it lies not in the direction which the hon. Gentleman would go, but in the formation of new small businesses, which will grow and create genuine jobs.

Mr. Douglas Hogg

Following the question put by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Broadgreen (Mr. Fields), does my right hon. Friend agree that the leadership of the National Union of Mineworkers would greatly enhance its reputation if it condemned the intolerable treatment by the miners who went on strike of those who chose not to go on strike? Does she further agree that the treatment of those who did not go on strike is an intolerable blot upon the reputation of the trade union movement?

The Prime Minister

Yes. I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. Unfortunately, the whole world knows that the miners' strike lasted for a year, that it was perpetuated through violence and intimidation, that it was supported by the Labour party, and that it was the Government, the working miners and the mass of the trade union movement that stood out against it and saw it off. I hope that my hon. Friend's advice will be taken in the quarters where it should be taken.

Mr. Home Robertson

May we have a little less humbug from the Prime Minister about rates in Scotland? Is she aware that in a written reply to me last week the Secretary of State for Scotland confirmed that, as a result of revaluation and successive cuts in rate support grant, domestic and commercial ratepayers in Scotland are bearing a 50 per cent. greater share of the burden of the costs of local services than they were when this Government came to power. So let us have a little less humbug. Will the Prime Minister admit that it is the Conservative Government who are responsible for the miseries of Scottish ratepayers?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman refers to proportions. If the total expenditure were less, the burden on the domestic ratepayer would be less. Although comparatively few Scottish electors pay rates, Labour local authorities unfortunately do not hesitate to place an intolerable burden upon them.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark

Has my right hon. Friend noticed today that Dr. Sidney Gee has been awarded libel damages amounting to £75,000 against the "That's Life" programme? Does she agree that the time has come for the lawyers' profession to be investigated, just as every other profession is investigated, since the actual costs in that case, in order to obtain justice, amounted to £1.2 million? Has not the time come when those who are libelled should at least obtain a fairer share of the costs, instead of £1.2 million going to the lawyers?

The Prime Minister

I know that my hon. Friend feels strongly about that matter. I shall draw his remarks to the attention of the appropriate Law Officers.

Mr. O'Brien

Having advised the House that she has now received the report on nurses' pay, will the Prime Minister assure the House and the nurses that she will not sit on the report, as she did last year? Will she implement the decision as quickly as possible, given the full implications?

The Prime Minister

We have still more reports to receive. The one from the Top Salaries Review Body will be some time, and therefore we shall probably not wait for it. It has a number of matters to consider. I hope that we shall be able to consider the rest before that one. There is still, of course, the doctors' and dentists' review body report to come. I am sure the hon. Gentleman understands that we must consider carefully how to find all the money that we decide must be found across the board, bearing in mind that it comes not from the Government but from taxpayers.

Later—

Mr. Heddle

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. During education questions, the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) caught your eye in order to ask a question about truancy. Was it not a gross abuse of Question Time for the hon. Gentleman to raise such a subject when 90 per cent. of the parliamentary Labour party were not in the Chamber, only one member of the Liberal party was present, and the Social Democratic party Member—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. If there was an abuse, it is being repeated now. I do not propose to let it continue.