§ 6. Sir Hector Monroasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Educational Institute for Scotland about salaries.
§ Mr. YoungerAs I indicated in my reply to the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) on 13 March, the general secretary of the Educational Institute for Scotland was present when I met representatives of the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education on 28 January and 15 February 1985. I have had no subsequent approach for a separate meeting, although I stand prepared at any time to discuss matters of mutual concern with the EIS.
§ Sir Hector MonroDoes my right hon. Friend agree that, by holding out for an independent inquiry, the teachers have provoked and prolonged this strike? Will he make one more effort to bring them together around the table under the proper negotiating procedures to conclude this issue in order to prevent further hindrance to education for our children and difficulty over examinations?
§ Mr. YoungerI entirely agree with my hon. Friend that the EIS is now the only teaching union that is holding out against my suggestion that its real and deeply felt grievances should be considered properly by the joint negotiating committee. I also share my hon. Friend's hope that somehow the EIS may be persuaded to attend discussions to air those grievances. I have made it clear that I am only too willing to help.
§ Mr. StrangDoes the Secretary of State accept that in our view teachers have an overwhelming case for an independent review? Does he recognise that all the evidence of the last few weeks shows that the teachers are hardening in their determination to advance their just case? Does the Secretary of State further accept that we cannot continue in this way, as it is doing immense damage to our children's education? There is a responsibility on him to come forward with a major new initiative.
§ Mr. YoungerI appreciate the hon. Gentleman's anxiety, which we all share, but he, as a reasonable person, must agree that during this protracted and unnecessary dispute I have continually made it clear that I do not deny the fact that teachers have grievances; nor do I refuse to discuss those grievances with them. One of their unions refuses to discuss the matter through the normal negotiating procedures. That is deplorable, especially as children's education is suffering.
§ Lord James Douglas-HamiltonWill my right hon. Friend confirm that the wide-ranging review within the framework of the SJNC remains on offer to the teachers, and that they have nothing to lose and probably a considerable amount to gain by accepting that offer?
§ Mr. YoungerI can confirm what my hon. Friend says. I have often made that offer, and I am reluctantly 253 forced to the view that the EIS has rejected it. It is getting more difficult every day to find funds to put the matter right. I am still willing to do my best to help.
§ Mr. EadieIs not the Secretary of State guilty of double standards? He chastises the teachers for not using what he describes as the normal conciliation machinery, yet his Government have refused to allow victimised miners to take advantage of the conciliation machinery which has been established in the mining industry since 1946. If the right hon. Gentleman is so vociferous in supporting normal conciliation machinery, why does he not come to the Dispatch Box and defend the victimised miners' right to practice conciliation and use their consultative machinery?
§ Mr. YoungerThe miners' strike is a completely different subject, and the Government have not done what the hon. Gentleman suggests they did. The matter of dismissed miners is entirely between the Coal Board and its employees. To draw a parallel between the teachers' dispute and the miners' strike is not a happy approach to the problem.
§ Mrs. McCurleyDoes my right hon. Friend agree that although we have often been asked during the dispute to consider the pay standards awarded by Clegg or Houghton, we should consider what the Conservative Government have given to teachers and the increase in teachers' salaries since we came to power in 1979?
§ Mr. YoungerMy hon. Friend is right. As I have stressed in many letters to teachers, it is a myth that teachers' pay has fallen behind the cost of living since 1979—indeed, they have done rather better. It is worth drawing that to their attention, while still agreeing that they may feel that they are overworked. I am only too ready to discuss and to help to solve their problems.
§ Mr. EwingMay I make a suggestion to the Secretary of State, which may help him out of the difficulties which he has created for teachers, parents and pupils in Scotland? Does he support the Tory-controlled Lothian regional council in setting up its emergency teaching centres and paying teachers £50 a day to work there? If so, why does he not make the same offer as a basis on which to begin negotiations with the EIS?
§ Mr. YoungerI have not made such a specific offer as that. I have offered — this cannot be stressed too much — that if the teachers produce within their negotiating committee a package covering pay and conditions of service, I shall consider such a package sympathetically and try to find a way of helping to implement it. As for Lothian education committee, it is responsible for dealing with the education of children in its area, and if it has taken sensible measures to provide some education for children who are deprived of it because of the teachers' strike action, it has the right to do so.