HC Deb 30 October 1984 vol 65 cc1147-8
5. Mr. Jim Callaghan

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now agree to make additional funds available to local authorities to meet the costs of any pay increase recommended for teachers by the arbitration panel.

Sir Keith Joseph

No, Sir.

Mr. Callaghan

I thank the Secretary of State for that explicit reply. Is he aware that there is widespread despondency and extremely low morale among the teaching profession, which it is affecting the standard of education in schools? Does he accept that he should make the teachers an improved pay offer if he is to improve that morale and, consequently, the standard of education?

Sir Keith Joseph

The hon. Gentleman was one of many who urged the Government to accept arbitration over the last teachers' pay claim. In reply, I constantly said that, arbitration or not, there would be no extra money available. He now urges me to find extra money and seems not to have learnt the lesson of what I said last time. To the extent that there is low morale, it must stem largely from the false expectations raised amoung teachers by the totally unrealistic pay claim put forward by their trade union leaders.

Mr. Forth

Was it not made perfectly clear throughout to the teachers that the resources available were necessarily limited and that each extra percentage point for which they pushed would cause a reduction in resources elsewhere? Are we not now seeing the inevitable result?

Sir Keith Joseph

I wish that I could put it as effectively and vividly as my hon. Friend.

Mr. Meadowcroft

Does not acceptance of the legitimacy and independence of the arbitration procedure entail acceptance of the need to provide the cash to meet it? Is it not cloud-cuckoo-land to assume that an increase in the largest part of the largest item of a local authority's budget will not otherwise inevitably result in fewer teachers? Is that the right hon. Gentleman's intention?

Sir Keith Joseph

That just cannot be true where there are cash limits, as there are in this service. It is not possible to respect the interests of the whole country with regard to employment and low inflation if the Government lose control of such essential heavy items of public spending as local authority expenditure.