HC Deb 23 October 1984 vol 65 cc655-63 10.50 pm
Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster)

I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity of taking part in the debate on the order, which has been subjected to in-depth scrutiny by the Northern Ireland Assembly's Environment Committee. The Secretary of State has accepted many of the Committee's recommendations. On 19 June, the Committee responded to a letter from the Secretary of State. I trust that even further changes will be made.

Many hon. Members decry the Northern Ireland Assembly, its usefulness and the work of its elected representatives. Yet, if I had closed my eyes tonight when the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) spoke, I could have been excused for thinking that he had carefully scrutinised the Committee's recommendations and that its report formed the basis of his argument—except in one instance.

We have the answer to the critics of the work of the Assembly and its Environment Committee in this debate because much has already been done to provide a better order. The Secretary of State accepts many of the Committee's recommendations.

The Minister said tonight that the chairman and vice-chairman of the authority would in future be appointed by the Department. He was keen to point out that, although that was a great departure from what has happened in the past, it was not a slight on those who had occupied those posts in the past.

Curiously, that reminds me of what happened some years ago in Northern Ireland. The Government and the House praised the Ulster special constabulary for its excellent work and devotion in the Province—then the Government disbanded the force. After they praise the chairman and vice-chairman and their excellent work, they say that they will not entrust the authority with the privilege of electing its own chairman and vice-chairman. That verges on saying, "We cannot trust the authority to appoint its chairman or vice-chairman." That is a matter for deep regret.

The second part of the order also deals with relevant matters. Much of the fire brigade's work extends beyond the extinction of fires. In Northern Ireland the fire service could appropriately be called the fire and rescue service. Some recognition of that can be found in the order. The wording of the proposed legislation should reflect more clearly the distinctive role of the Northern Ireland fire service.

I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Forsythe) said about fire hydrants. Many country areas do not have fire hydrants and hydrants in some areas do not work. Surely the order should be amended to require the Department to provide such facilities within 28 days of being notified of their absence. I have a large rural constituency and such a requirement would be of great assistance to us. If it is not included in the order, it will not be done.

The firemen's union has expressed great anxiety about the matter. Firemen encounter untold difficulties in locating fire hydrants in rural areas and they face the added difficulty of maintaining a water supply when they find a hydrant. It is incumbent on the fire authority to ensure that an adequate and constant water supply is available and that fire hydrants are working satisfactorily.

When there was a fire in my locality, it took firemen about an hour to find the fire hydrant and it proved to be useless. The fire brigade had to travel several miles to get water to put out that fire.

The fire authority was set up after the reorganisation of local government in 1973. Control by public representatives was diluted. Unfortunately, the same thing happened in most other areas of public life—much to the detriment of Ulster people. Our Province needs more democracy and more democratic control by its elected representatives.

Certain premises, including churches and private single-occupancy dwellings, are to be exempted from fire regulations. The House will understand why I, as a minister of religion, agree that churches have rightly been exempted, given the low risk element in such premises. However, fires in private homes have been the greatest source of fire fatalities in the Province. In 1980, 29 of the 30 deaths in fires occurred in private homes.

The Northern Ireland Assembly has asked that buildings that are granted occasional entertainment licences and often carry an inherent risk should be covered by legislation. Under article 26, the authority is allowed considerable scope in determining the period within which an applicant for a fire certificate is required to do certain things. Surely that part of the legislation ought to be strengthened to give the authority power to require requested information to be made available within a given period.

Another matter that causes great anxiety is the omission of any expression of the level of safety achieved by compliance with the legislation. In addition, fire regulations do not take into consideration changes that may occur during the lifetime of a building and may affect the effectiveness of fire precautions legislation. It is felt that article 29 ought to be amended to include a schedule providing that inspections of different types of premises take place at specific intervals.

I do not wish to lengthen the debate or to rehash the debate in another place. I appreciate the measures that the Secretary of State has seen fit to take, which were the subject of his reply on 5 June, and the points of clarification that have been noted. It is accepted by all that fire precaution is an important aspect of the work of the fire service. Obviously, every fire prevented is one fire less with which to deal. Prevention is much less costly than cure.

It is welcome that the Department of the Environment has made provision in the next two financial years to enable the authority to increase its strength by up to 10 posts to meet the immediate demand arising from the fire precaution aspect of the proposed order. However, it is the desire of the people of Northern Ireland that the authority should be more representative of local opinion. The Government's view is that the amendment proposed by the Northern Ireland Assembly would endanger what the Secretary of State calls a general acceptance of the firefighting and fire precaution services within the community. My colleagues and I resent such a claim. Indeed, it is an insult to Ulster's elected representatives that the Secretary of State asserts that the people appointed by him would be more acceptable than those elected by the people of Northern Ireland. I do not agree with his assertion, which is a sign of contempt for the democratic process.

I wish to place on record the sincere appreciation of hon. Members for the dedicated professional work of the Northern Ireland fire service during the last few years, especially bearing in mind the turmoil in the Province. No words of mine could explain how the people of Northern Ireland feel in their hearts about those who do such excellent work under current conditions. Their dedication to duty, their courage and their magnificant work is deeply appreciated.

However, a pat on the back is not sufficient. The Minister has said that he is waiting for the result of action that has already been taken. I ask him to respond to the request for a proper pension scheme that would cover retained firefighters, upon whose skill and courage the majority of the lives of the people of Ulster depend. A vast number of those who fight fires are retained firemen. Will the Minister reconsider the recommendations already rejected by his Department? I trust that he will ensure that our legislation is the best possible for the Province and in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith, as usual, made cries of discrimination. If he is not looking to Dublin when he speaks in the House, he has something to say about discrimination. I trust that I am not unparliamentary in saying that it was something of a cheek for him to mention the GLC. Anyone looking at the GLC and Red Ken would realise that the GLC is the last system in the world to hold up as an ideal local government.

Red Ken ensures that the red brigade are around him. If a Conservative, a Liberal or even a moderate Socialist applies for a job at the GLC, that person, to use a country expression from home, hasn't a pup's chance. The spokesman for Her Majesty's Opposition would do better to keep the charge of discrimination for his own party and look inside before pointing the finger across the Irish sea to the rest of the United Kingdom.

11.5 pm

Mr. J. Enoch Powell (South Down)

No one who listened to the careful and well-informed speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Forsythe) can be unaware of how unsatisfactory a method of making law is the procedure by Order in Council. As he made his successive points, one noted that the Minister was taking them on board and that there was a regular and vigorous traffic between the Minister and his well-qualified advisers. I am sure that the Minister's answers on all those points, so far as he can achieve it, will not be perfunctory. Yet one thing is certain in advance. Though we speak with the tongues of men and angels, not a jot or comma in the order will be changed. We have not the opportunity, clause by clause and subsection by subsection, Northern Ireland Assembly or no, to put the details of the legislation before our colleagues and before the Minister in circumstances in which he can be persuaded by our arguments or by his own later thoughts. No prior consultation can be any substitute for the proper processes of parliamentary legislation. I am afraid that we are having an object lesson in that tonight.

After the speech of my hon. Friend, I wish to refer only to two points of little more than a drafting nature and to two others of a semi-constitutional character. Like the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea), however, I cannot help referring to the remarks which fell from the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley). The hon. Member for Hammersmith fell into the common fallacy of taking the composition of a body, recruitment to that body or promotion within that body, comparing it with the composition of the population at large, and concluding that if the two do not match, the discrepancy is due to deliberate and culpable discrimination. That is an arrant fallacy. There are a hundred reasons why, even in the matter of promotion, let alone in the matter of recruitment, there could be marked discrepancy. Until those factors have been examined with great care—I do not believe that the hon. Member for Hammersmith is in a position to gauge many of them — no conclusion whatever can validly be drawn as to the motives which have actuated those who conduct the appointment or promotion.

Mr. Soley

Once again, the right hon. Gentleman has got it wrong from the start. It does not follow that the discrimination is deliberate. I did not say that and nor would the Fair Employment Agency say it. Discrimination takes place at a number of different levels and sometimes it is deliberate. The point that the right hon. Gentleman must answer is this. Does he believe that discrimination has taken place in employment in Northern Ireland, and does he favour getting rid of the agency? Obviously his hon. Friend would like to get rid of it, as would the Democratic Unionist party. Where does the right hon. Gentleman stand?

Mr. Powell

I voted against the legislation under which the Fair Employment Agency was set up. I believe that it has been an unfair employment agency in its operation. It is an abomination, and I would like to see it off the statute book. The hon. Gentleman has his answer, although it is one that my hon. Friends and I have already put on the record in years past.

I was about to refer to one such factor which must be considered in judging the circumstances in Northern Ireland. That is the personal safety of people who volunteer to take part in certain public services. When one knows the pressures that can be brought to bear on individuals and their families in Northern Ireland, that is sufficient reason for treating with great scepticism any suggestion that discrepancies of proportionate employment place any stigma on anyone concerned, including the authority in question.

I shall now deal with the two points of detail that I want to raise with the Minster. I do not know whether the good and laudable custom still prevails of Ministers reading while they are still in draft the orders which they are eventually to lay before the House. I commend that practice to the Minister and other Ministers. It can lead to a wonderful improvement in the quality of what is laid before the House if it has been read before by the Minister concerned before it reaches too late a stage of drafting. When I read article 4(2)(a) and attempted to construe it, I was certain that no Minister could have read it and let it pass and that no Committee of the House would have left it unaltered in a Bill. It construes as follows: The Authority shall make the provision required … by securing— (a) the services of the fire brigade to meet efficiently all normal requirements". That simply does not mean what it says. It is a piece of sloppy, badly drafted English which does not convey the intention, namely, something parallel with subparagraph (b) "the efficient training of members of the fire brigade and subparagraph (c) which begins: efficient arrangements". Such drafting would simply not have passed muster if it had been examined properly earlier.

My second point relates to article 9 to which the Minister referred, although he did not quote the actual reference to article 9(2)(c). The wording there is said to result in the secretary of the authority reporting no longer to the authority but to the chief fire officer. The alteration that has produced this stupendous effect is to substitute for the words such administrative and other officers as may be necessary for the performance of the functions of the Authority the longer form such administrative and other officers as may be necessary to assist the chief fire officer in the performance of the functions of the Authority. That may achieve the result that is claimed by the Minister; but the House would be obliged—and it might be convenient for the future—if he could give a more precise indication of how that result follows.

I now discuss the two larger points I have in mind. By regulations under article 48, any of the provisions of that part of the Act may be applied to vessels remaining moored or on dry land and so on and to tents and other movable structures". When they are made, those will be important regulations. They will affect many people and many interests. Moreover, they will not be easy to draft in such a way as to be both sensible and effective. We therefore look to discover under what sanction those regulations will become law. We read in article 52 that all regulations made under this Order shall be subject to negative resolution. I come here to a point that was made with seductive innocence by my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South—that these orders tell lies and are drafted as if the Northern Ireland (Interim Provisions) Act 1974 did not exist. To understand what will actually happen, hon. Members need to have beside them, while reading these orders, a copy of the schedule to the 1974 Act to use like a vocabulary: for A substitute B; for X substitute Y. When they have interpreted it with that aid, they will discover that "subject to negative resolution" means that there will be no procedure at all.

Now, anyone would admit that it is quite unsatisfactory that hon. Members and the representatives of the public in Northern Ireland, assembly or no assembly, should have no opportunity whatsoever to scrutinise, criticise or secure amendment in regulations in so important an area, which apply to provisions of the order.

I hope that the Minister will be able to concur with a suggestion I have to make. I trust we shall not long live under the absurd regime of a combination of legislation by Order in Council with the Northern Ireland (Interim Provisions) Act 1974. I believe that the day cannot long be delayed when the House will recognise that it must legislate for Northern Ireland in the same way as it legislates for the rest of the kingdom. But pending that day dawning, will the Minister, in the context of this order, give a specific undertaking in respect of the regulations and tell the House that when and if such regulations come forward they will be brought in draft form to the attention first—having listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South I must say this — of the union concerned, but also of hon. Members representing Northern Ireland and elsewhere on a wide and generous scale so that we can get as near as possible under this regime to a genuine opportunity for negative resolution. That seems a reasonable request to make of the Minister, and I hope that he can tell us that it will be accepted.

Finally, I refer to part IV of the order, which deals with the inspecting and, as it were, supervisory functions of the Secretary of State. When we apply the vocabulary of the Northern Ireland (Interim Provisions) Act 1974, we discover that what is called the "Department" is the Secretary of State. As my hon. Friend said, it is only proper that since the Secretary of State is the only person inside the authority or elsewhere who is directly responsible to the elected representatives of the people, that is how it must be.

The Secretary of State is empowered, and, by implication, required in duty, to assure himself through inspection and otherwise that the authority is fulfilling its duties under the legislation. If he is not satisfied, he must proceed either by direction or in default of his own responsibility. Therefore, the order ends by making the Secretary of State as responsible in the House, responsible in the last resort for the efficiency and the operation of the fire services in Northern Ireland. That is as it should be, and that is the only solution which could be put forward to the existence of a body which comprises only nominated persons, some nominated by the Secretary of State and others by various bodies such as the city of Belfast and the Association of Local Authorities of Northern Ireland.

It would be unconstitutional and unacceptable for so important a function to be carried out without direct public accountability. It is the position of the Secretary of State under part IV which creates that accountability. That should be clearly understood, although upon the face of the order a good deal of interpretation must be carried through before it appears.

11.19 pm
Mr. Chris Patten

I am grateful for the interest which several right hon. and hon. Members have shown in this important order. I was especially grateful for what the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) said at the beginning of his remarks about the professionalism and bravery of the fire service in Northern Ireland — comments that were echoed by other hon. Members during our short though interesting debate.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith raised several points, and I shall deal with the three main ones. He mentioned the possibly enhanced role for women in the fire service in the Province, and I shall certainly draw the attention of the Fire Authority to his remarks. He referred, as did several other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Forsythe) in a characteristically well-informed speech, to pay and pensions. I should make the point, with the assistance of the traffic to which the right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) referred, that the pay and pensions of firemen in Northern Ireland are determined, as the House will know, through the mechanism of the National Joint Council for Local Authority Fire Brigades in Great Britain. In common with their counterparts in Great Britain, part-time firemen in Northern Ireland do not receive a pension from the Fire Authority. The House will know that that principle is being challenged through the courts, and as the issue is clearly sub judice we must wait to see what happens.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith referred in rather more controversial terms to the Fair Employment Agency report, and what he had to say was the subject of an exchange between him and the right hon. Member for South Down. I must tell the hon. Gentleman that, whatever the discussion between himself and the right hon. Member for South Down about discrimination, the FEA report does not talk about discrimination in the fire service. It argued that equality of opportunity had not been achieved in the service. I am sure that the hon. Member for Hammersmith will be pleased to note the co-operation which the agency received from the authority at every stage in the preparation of its report, and he will be pleased by the ready acceptance by the authority of the agency's recommendation. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the authority, which is currently involved in a recruitment exercise for full-time firemen, is putting into operation in that exercise the recommendations made by the agency.

Mr. Soley

I said that I recognised that the fire service was going out of its way to co-operate, and I want that view to be firmly on the record. My concern is that support is not offered from the Unionist parties in the House towards that concept. It devalues everyone's worth if we do not pursue that at the level that it deserves and at the level at which the people in the Northern Ireland fire service are prepared to pursue it.

Mr. Patten

I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said, but I repeat that the recommendations of the FEA are being supported wholeheartedly and implemented by the the authority, which is the main consideration. I repeat that the authority includes several members who are directly elected representatives.

The hon. Member for Antrim, South, in his interesting and thoughtful speech, mentioned several points, with which I shall try to deal seriatim. First, he said that we have not adequately consulted members of the fire service in Northern Ireland, and I apologise for any lack of consultation. I am advised that a copy of the order was sent to the Northern Ireland secretary of the Fire Brigade Union, but unfortunately — perhaps fortunately in the broader sense—he had moved house shortly beforehand, and it took some time to get a copy of the original proposals to him. I unreservedly apologise for the fact that that mistake was made.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the head of the Department. The answer was given with more eloquence, and conceivably more accuracy, than I shall now do by his right hon. Friend the Member for South Down. Under the provisions of the Northern Ireland Act 1974, the functions of the head of Department — previously a Stormont Minister—are carried out by the Department, in this case the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland for which I have some responsibility, but subject to the direction and control of the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman has made that point to me on other even more controversial occasions.

The hon. Member for Antrim, South also talked about the position of the chairman and vice-chairman. That point was also made by the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea), whose remarks reflected the comments of the Assembly. I can only repeat what I said initially, that on balance we took the view that it was sensible to bring the authority — not least because of its considerable responsibilities and the considerable amount of public money for which it is responsible—into line with similar bodies in the Provinces, such as the Police Authority, the Housing Executive, the Water Council and the Electricity Service. I am sorry that both hon. Members do not care for that decision, and I again assure them that it is no reflection on the unstinting service of previous chairmen of the authority.

The hon. Member for Antrim, South referred to relations with the Republic. I assure him that we are not referring to anything more than the usual reciprocal assistance between brigades south of the border and the brigade in the Province. This is a particularly active feature of life in some parts of the Province. There needs to be these reciprocal arrangements and we are not referring to anything more than that.

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, explosives and their control is a reserved matter. Therefore, it is not possible to deal with them in this order. That issue is covered by another piece of explosives legislation.

I know that the inspectorate has concerned the Fire Brigades Union. There will be no change in the existing practice of using the Home Office fire inspectorate. Article 50 simply repeats, with a slight textual amendment, existing provisions. The Home Office inspectorate will continue to be used by us. I also assure the hon. Gentleman that the same standards and conditions of service will apply in Northern Ireland as apply on this side of the water.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the minutes of the authority. This is a matter on which we have exchanged correspondence. As I told him in my letter of 18 October, I am considering this point and I shall write to him again as soon as possible.

The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends the Members for Mid-Ulster and for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross) spoke of hydrants. I am obviously concerned with the anxieties of hon. Gentlemen, and I shall ensure that those problems are looked at closely and quickly. I can answer them to this extent. I know that the Fire Authority consults closely with the water service on the location of fire hydrants when new mains are being laid, and the authority operates its own hydrant patrols to check on the serviceability of hydrants. I shall bring the attention of the road service and its divisional management to the points made by the hon. Gentlemen.

The question of religious premises was raised not only by the hon. Member for Antrim, South but by the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster, and was touched on, with a delicate reference to the Bishop of Durham, by the hon. Member for Hammersmith. Premises used for public religious worship are exempt from the requirements of the fire certificate when they are used solely or mainly for public worship. If the fire authority considers that a church is being used substantially for other purposes, the fire authority can require a fire certificate to be applied for under article 23.

The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster also referred to the information that is made available to the Fire Authority. It can ask for information from an applicant for a fire certificate within whatever time it believes to be necessary, and this time will vary depending on the complexity of the information and on whether the applicant may have to seek information from another source. For example, a tenant may have to seek information from his landlord.

The right hon. Member for South Down expressed reservations about legislation by order. I note what he says, although I suspect that he may need to make the point again, and I may need to note what he said again. He made a couple of detailed comments about the drafting of the order. He dealt with article 4(2)(a) in some detail, but it does not seem as bad to me as it does to him. However, I am notoriously bad about these things. I once wrote a book that I subsequently discovered had a lot of mistakes, and not only political ones.

More substantially, the right hon. Gentleman referred to articles 48 and 52. He said—this seemed wholly reasonable — that if we were to bring forward orders under article 52, we should consult widely with right hon. and hon. Gentlemen about them. I shall consider that proposal sympathetically, and I see no objection in principle to such consultation, in the event of such an order under article 52, for example, if it applied to vessels.

The right hon. Gentleman also referred to the accountability of the Secretary of State to the House for his supervisory functions under the order. I accept what the right hon. Gentleman said about that accountability.

I think that I have dealt with the majority of points raised by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen. If I have not, it will be brought to my attention through the usual traffic. I am grateful on behalf of the Fire Service for the quite proper regard that has been shown by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen for its record in Northern Ireland. It is a record that has properly earned it the admiration of its colleagues in other fire services throughout the United Kingdom, and beyond.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the draft Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1984, which was laid before this House on 17th July, be approved.

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