HC Deb 23 October 1984 vol 65 cc538-40
3. Mr. Wolfson

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether his officials have had any meetings with the British Medical Association to discuss civil defence planning.

5. Mr. Neil Thorne

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he is preparing a new circular on civil defence to replace HDC(77)1.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. John Patten)

A preliminary draft to replace circular HDC(77)1, which contains the existing guidance to health authorities on civil defence planning, was sent to the British Medical Association on 30 July 1984 with an offer of meetings wth officials to facilitate the association's internal discussions. We are awaiting a further response.

Mr. Wolfson

I thank my hon. Friend. Would he care to enlarge on that answer and explain what he aims to achieve in those discussions?

Mr. Patten

We hope to have the active co-operation of both the BMA and the Royal College of Nursing in planning for the care of casualties after a conventional or, indeed, a nuclear attack on this country.

Mr. Thorne

I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that a number of area health authorities are anxious to get their hands on the documents. Will he do all that he possibly can to expedite the matter by putting pressure on the bodies currently being consulted?

Mr. Patten

I appreciate my hon. Friend's interest as chairman of the National Council for Civil Defence. We shall circulate the draft guidance to local health authorities for consultation as soon as we are in a position to do so, but at a meeting last October I pledged, with the then Minister of State, Home Office, now my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, that we would give the BMA and the Royal College of Nursing a first look.

Mr. Strang

Do the Government now accept the assumptions as to the likely number of casualties arising from a nuclear attack which are contained in the BMA's historic report on the medical effects of nuclear war, a report which concluded that the entire National Health Service could not cope with the dropping of a single 1 megaton bomb on a British city?

Mr. Patten

At its own request, the BMA is constructively considering its advice to us on these issues. We are awaiting that advice and hope to have it shortly.

Mr. Meacher

On the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang), as a World Health Organisation study recently revealed that no health service in the world could deal with the casualties arising from a single 1 megaton nuclear bomb, and as most experts believe that a nuclear exchange would be in the range of 200 megaton, is not medical expenditure on civil defence at best a cruel deception and at worst a sick joke? If that is not so, how do the Government justify spending £20 million on building deep shelters for regional and central Government personnel while in "Protect and Survive" they tell the rest of us to whitewash our windows and wrap jackets around our heads?

Mr. Patten

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's comments. They are a classic case of the kind of remark made before the event which prefaces the kind of complaint that will be made after the event if we have not taken the necessary precautions. It is incumbent on the Government of this country to take every reasonable precaution to deal with the aftermath of both conventional and nuclear attack, exactly as the Labour Government did in 1977.

4. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what help he is able to give to the voluntary aid societies for medical training to meet their civil defence role.

9. Sir Anthony Kershaw

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what training aids and publications are available from his Department for medical training of voluntary aid societies personnel in their civil defence role.

Mr. John Patten

Under the provisions of section 64 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968, grants of £10,000 per year are being made towards the administrative costs in respect of their civil defence role of both the British Red Cross Society and the Order of St. John. There is no question of the volunteer members of these organisations being involved in the provision of definitive medical treatment. The training aids and publications on first aid produced by the voluntary aid societies themselves provide all that is required to supplement the high standard of practical training that they give.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

As many first aid posts are the responsibility of area health authorities or boards, does my hon. Friend agree that training funds might be forthcoming from his Department as well as from the Home Office?

Mr. Patten

At present my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State does not have the statutory power to make such funds available. None the less, there is close co-operation between the voluntary aid societies and district and regional health authorities, and considerable help is given with training at that level.

Sir Anthony Kershaw

Is there not a need for paramedical guidance for civil defence volunteers to enable them to deal not only with the problems of radiation sickness but with long-term problems such as the shortage of drugs, equipment and expertise?

Mr. Patten

It is just such issues that will be addressed in the circular that was the subject of the previous question.

Mrs. Clwyd

Has the Secretary of State considered issuing suicide pills to the emergency services, as the Government's own studies show that, after a nuclear attack, there will be millions of untended dying?

Mr. Patten

No, Sir.

Mr. Skinner

Will the Minister take on Mr. MacGregor to give advice on the treatment of victims, as he seems to be an expert in putting a plastic bag over his head?

Mr. Patten

No, Mr. Speaker. As always, I look to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to take the lead on such important issues.