HC Deb 26 November 1984 vol 68 cc613-4
54. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what is the latest annual rate of recruitment into the Civil Service.

The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Barney Hayhoe)

30,844 people were recruited into the non-industrial grades of the Home Civil Service during the year ended 30 June 1984. This figure is provisional and may be subject to minor correction. Figures for industrial recruitment are not held centrally.

Mr. Chapman

I thank my hon. Friend for that information. Is he satisfied with the number of scientists and engineers who are being recruited into the Civil Service? Is he also satisfied that there is every encouragement for civil servants to be seconded to industry for short periods of time and for industrialists to be seconded to the Civil Service? Does he agree that such an arrangement benefits everyone?

Mr. Hayhoe

I agree that such mutual interchange is beneficial to industrial and commercial firms and to the Civil Service and that it should be encouraged. The numbers now taking part in such exchanges are higher than a few years ago. I should like more applications from scientists and engineers, especially for the administrative Civil Service, as it ought to show a better balance between generalists and scientists, engineers and technologists. Similar proportions of applicants from each discipline are successful.

Mr. Winnick

Should it not be part of a democratic society that anyone who enters the Civil Service has the right to belong to a trade union? What pressures are now being applied at GCHQ to ensure that people who, on a point of principle, refuse to give up their trade union membership are forced out? Is the Minister aware that, in view of what is now going on at Cheltenham, we shall require a statement from him as soon as possible?

Mr. Hayhoe

The matter is primarily one for my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, but I imagine that the House realises that the recent judgment of the House of Lords—the highest court in the land—confirmed that given by the Court of Appeal to the effect that the revised terms and conditions of service introduced at GCHQ on 25 January are valid. With regard to employees at GCHQ who have decided not to opt for those conditions, every effort will now be made to find alternative posts for those who do not wish to remain at GCHQ under the revised conditions and terms of service.

Mr. Peter Bruinvels

Does my hon. Friend agree that too many people are being taken on and that it is important to reduce the numbers being admitted to the Civil Service? That is our priority.

Mr. Hayhoe

My hon. Friend is less than fair to the great progress which has been made. Since 1979 the Civil Service has been reduced from 732,000 to under 620,000 at present. This is the smallest Civil Service that we have had since the war. The numbers now being recruited are well under half those which were recruited in 1978.

Dr. McDonald

Will the Minister bear in mind that a proper level of recruitment to the Civil Service depends on how the Government treat their own employees? Will he now give an assurance, or seek one from his right hon. and learned Friend, that those working at GCHQ who wish neither to be transferred nor to give up their trade union rights will not be dismissed until such time as the case is further heard at the European Court of Human Rights?

Mr. Hayhoe

As I said earlier, these are really matters for my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary. However, the House of Lords judgment completed the domestic legal process. GCHQ will endeavour to find alternative posts within the Civil Service for those who do not wish to remain at GCHQ under the new conditions. There may be some for whom suitable positions cannot be found, and they will be offered premature retirement on redundancy terms. All this will take some time. Therefore, the question of dismissals does not arise at this stage.