HC Deb 26 November 1984 vol 68 cc599-605
2. Mr. Madel

asked the Secretary of State for Energy what estimates he has received from the National Coal Board as to the value of the equipment in the mines damaged beyond repair due to the coal dispute; and if he will make a statement.

6. Sir William van Straubenzee

asked the Secretary of State for Energy whether he will make a statement on the current industrial dispute in the coal industry.

9. Mrs. Clwyd

asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the coal strike.

10. Mr. Jessel

asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the mining strike.

14. Mr. Tim Smith

asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the coalmining dispute.

15. Mr. Lofthouse

asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he has any plans to discuss the pit closure programme with the chairman of the National Coal Board.

Mr. Peter Walker

With permission, I shall answer questions Nos. 2, 6, 9, 10, 14 and 15.

Since I answered questions in the House on 29 October there has been a substantial improvement in the number of miners returning to work. The number of men not on strike in the industry as a whole is now 99,000, approximately 44 per cent. of those employed in the industry.

Mr. Willie W. Hamilton

Wrong question.

Mr. Walker

There are substantial stocks of coal at power stations. I am pleased to inform the House that stocks of coal at power stations are similar to what they were on 26 August.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Answer question No. 2.

Mr. Walker

The Government regret that considerable damage continues to be done—

Mr. Orme

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

I think that the Secretary of State is just coming to the question on the mines damaged beyond repair.

Mr. Walker

The Government regret that considerable damage continues to be done to the industry by the continuation of the strike. The compromise proposal put forward by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service and the detailed agreement reached with the National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers provide proposals which should be acceptable to all those employed in the industry.

The Government deplore the continuing violence which is taking place and the injuries which have been sustained by a number of those miners who have returned to work. The Government regret that members of the NUM continue to be deprived of the opportunity to express their views through a national ballot.

Mr. Orme

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does the linkage of questions proposed by the Secretary of State still stand?

Mr. Speaker

It is not for the Chair to link questions. That is done by the Secretary of State. With this question which deals with mines damaged beyond repair, are linked other questions dealing with the coal strike generally.

Mr. Madel

As it is vital to increase the number of jobs in our manufacturing industry, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the NCB will make every effort to place orders with British firms to replace damaged equipment when the dispute ends?

Mr. Walker

Yes. Most of the mining machinery firms which have supplied the NCB in the past are British and I am sorry that they are suffering now. There is no doubt that when the dispute is over there will be a continuation of the major investment programme, and it will be the objective of the NCB and certainly of the Government that British firms benefit primarily from that programme.

Sir William van Straubenzee

Are not the figures which my right hon. Friend—

Mr. Willie W. Hamilton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is important to state at this point that the questions now being asked have nothing to do with the original question.

Mr. Speaker

I have already said that it is not for me to link questions. That has already been done. However, I will take into account the fact that there are other questions on the Order Paper on this subject.

Sir William van Straubenzee

Are not the figures given by my right hon. Friend about the abandonment of the strike enormously encouraging? He has made immense and successful efforts to publicise the terms that lie on the table, but will he also use this psychological moment to emphasise that the terms available for those returning to work are better than any that would be available in a comparable industry?

Mr. Walker

There is a series of guarantees on pay, lack of compulsory redundancies and the future investment programme which make the offer unique, not only compared with other industries, but since nationalisation. That is why I deeply regret that the NUM continues to refuse to allow its members to be balloted. I have no doubt what the result would be if they were balloted.

Mrs. Clwyd

First, I must object to the linking of questions proposed by the Secretary of State. Some of them are on specific matters and should not have been linked with question No. 2.

Given that 75 million to 80 million tonnes of coal will have been lost by the end of the current financial year and that the NCB's proposal in "Plan for coal" was to cut 4 million tonnes from the overall capacity, what is the point of going ahead with pit closures, and where will the Government get the coal?

Mr. Walker

Even after the length of this dispute, we still have the most massive coal mountain. About 37 million tonnes of stocks still remain. Therefore, the importance of future production is that it should be at a cost that enables it to compete with new markets and to expand the markets for coal instead of having them contract.

Mr. Jessel

Is not the fact that one miner has been beaten up and badly hurt, that the house of another has been burnt down and that nine have been charged with serious criminal assault a direct effect of the inflammatory and provocative rabble-rousing of Mr. Scargill?

Mr. Walker

The TUC said some months ago how much it deplored the methods of picketing that were bringing violence to mining communities. The horrific cases that we have seen over the past few days illustrate that it is time that the NUM complied with either the TUC guidelines on picketing or with its own union guidelines on picketing and prevented this type of mob activity and violence from taking place.

Mr. Lofthouse

The Secretary of State failed to answer my question No. 15, which he said that he was linking with question No. 2. Has he any plans to meet the chairman of the NCB to discuss the pit closure programme? If so, will he inform the chairman that the situation in some mining communities, and certainly in my community, is like living on a powder keg? Does he realise that matters have got so serious that we have miner fighting miner, with problems spilling over into school playgrounds? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Government's policy and the pit closure programme are leading to the development of a Northern Ireland situation in our communities? Bearing that in mind, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it is his duty, as Secretary of State, to instruct the chairman of the NCB to reopen negotiations for an honourable settlement?

Mr. Walker

I understand the hon. Gentleman's deep concern about what is happening in his community, but he knows better than anyone that if at the beginning of the dispute the NUM had complied with normal procedures and held a ballot and members had voted to strike not one miner would have crossed a picket line. No picketing would have been required. The NUM executive can hold a ballot at any time that it wishes. Its decision to use the mob picket rather than the ballot box caused the trouble.

Mr. Benn

Does the Secretary of State recall that in June the Prime Minister said that 50,000 miners were at work, in July 60,000 and on 25 October 70,000? Is he aware that the Coal Board claims that only 62,000 are back at work? Have not the Government been feeding fraudulent figures to wage psychological warfare against the NUM, and are they not wholly unsuccessful?

Mr. Walker

That illustrates the right hon. Gentleman's failure even to understand what the figures are about. The figures that he mentions were used in relation to NUM membership. The figure that I gave this afternoon concerns those employed in the industry as a whole, including NACODS and the British Association of Colliery Managers. A total of 99,000 are at work.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

In relation to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South-West (Mr. Madel), is not the damage to equipment and the potential damage to coal faces a greater threat to future job opportunities in the mining industry than any of the NCB's proposals?

Mr. Walker

Yes, Sir. Coal faces have been damaged and destroyed in economic pits which had a good future for those working in them. Machinery has been damaged and markets lost. Without a dispute this year 1,000 firms would have converted to coal. Now, alas, many firms which have converted are considering converting back to other fuels.

Mr. Hardy

In view of the damage caused, the bitterness bred and the hardship generated, will the Secretary of State reconsider his policy of non-intervention, which has gone on for far too long? If he will not take an initiative, will he at least ensure that the chairman of the NCB complies thoroughly with the NACODS agreement about which he boasts? Will he bear in mind that I have received a letter from the chairman of the NCB which suggests that the pledge of no redundancies will last only to the end of March 1985?

Mr. Walker

The answer about talks is best illustrated by the actions of the hon. Gentleman's own union, which talked in detail and came to an agreement. That agreement will be complied with by both sides. Mr. MacGregor has rightly said that if the strike continues in its present form and the coal faces of economic pits with a good future are destroyed, a considerable threat to the industry as a whole will be created.

Mr. Andy Stewart

Since the dispute is continuing and the damage now amounts to millions of pounds, will my right hon. Friend assure me that the investment earmarked for Nottinghamshire will not be diverted elsewhere?

Mr. Walker

Important developments and investments are to be made in Nottinghamshire and they will certainly be made. The Nottinghamshire miners have done a great deal to safeguard the future of the industry in markets, production and reputation.

Mr. Barron

Will the Minister answer the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy)? Last week there was some doubt about whether the Coal Board would make people compulsorily redundant. Is the Secretary of State aware that, according to any objective opinion, the only way that the NCB has moved in the last nine months has been on the question of compulsory redundancy? Is that pledge guaranteed to last only until the end of the current financial year, or does it run into the year 1985–86 and beyond?

Mr. Walker

The National Coal Board's plans for improving productivity and getting rid of the most uneconomic pits mean that we can guarantee miners that none of them will face compulsory redundancy. The only threat of compulsory redundancies for miners is posed by the destruction of good economic pits by the strike.

Mr. Skeet

Will my right hon. Friend answer a question which was put to me today? As valuable machinery is being destroyed, as men are being brutally intimidated, as the courts are being flouted and as money is being taken around the country in bags, will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of prosecutions being brought against those who have masterminded the strike and the NUM executive?

Mr. Walker

Powers of prosecution are matters for police authorities. The decisions are not for politicians to take. Immense damage has been done by the criminal acts that have taken place and the unbelievable violence that has been used to try to prevent miners returning to work.

Mr. Foot

Given the great importance of the subject, does the right hon. Gentleman say that there is no difference between what he says about compulsory redundancies and that which Mr. MacGregor has to say on the subject? Are we still to believe what Mr. MacGregor said on 6 March?

Mr. Walker

The position is clear. On all the plans for the future of the industry, there will be no compulsory redundancies. The only factor that could interfere with the plans is irresponsible strike action which destroys good, economic pits.

Mr. Rost

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that after the rally in Derby, which was organised by Mr. Arthur Scargill and supported by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), a record number of Derbyshire miners have today voted with their feet and returned to work?

Mr. Walker

I am pleased to inform the House that on 1 November there were slightly more than 1,180 miners working in north Derby and now there are 4,500 working in that area. When the Leader of the Opposition addresses the miners in Stoke on Friday, I hope that he will realise that he is speaking for the 20 per cent. of miners who are on strike and not the 80 per cent. of miners in that area who are at work.

Mr. Willie W. Hamilton

As the new regional aid policy to be announced this week will certainly worsen unemployment in coal mining areas, will the right hon. Gentleman direct his attention to the provision of far more finance and alternative jobs in coal industry areas than the Government have provided so far?

Mr. Walker

Yes, Sir. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the new company has been created. I am pleased to say that it has already received 150 inquiries about new businesses. I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that original financing has been provided to get the company at work. I assure him also that the position will be reviewed and that more money will be provided as is necessary to help this important work.

Mr. Maples

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many more miners would return to work if they did not feel threatened by the violence that is organised and inspired by their union? Given the appalling acts of premeditated violence to which he has referred which took place last week, will he assure the House that adequate protection will be given to those wishing to return to work?

Mr. Walker

Yes. Every protection possible will be given, but it is not possible to provide the type of protection that will stop a mob breaking into someone's house in the early hours of the morning and beating him up. That is the type of intimidation that has been introduced and we cannot give protection to every house. The Labour party recognises that there would have been no intimidation and no crossing of picket lines if there had been a ballot. Intimidation has been the only method of keeping miners out of work.

Mr. Redmond

Will the Minister set the record straight? Is he aware that I am fed up with hearing about ballots? The strike started—[Interruption.] Conservative Members should listen. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the strike started because the Coal Board and the Government failed to honour the procedures laid down on pit closures? Will he now get shot of the amateurs on the Coal Board and the Government side and bring in professionals who will seriously negotiate with the NUM to achieve a settlement of the strike?

Mr. Walker

Serious negotiations have taken place about various aspects, including a compromise solution suggested by ACAS and a detailed agreement accepted by NACODS. The one person who has always refused serious negotiation is Mr. Scargill.

Sir Anthony Meyer

In any correspondence that my right hon. Friend has with the bishops, will he suggest to them that there is a role for the Church in this matter, and that is to urge reconciliation between those who have been on strike and those who are at work? That is the bishops' task. It is not their task to intervene in the detailed conduct of the negotiations.

Mr. Walker

I very much share my hon. Friend's view that the churches have a considerable role to play in endeavouring to return a sense of unity as quickly as possible to the mining communities.

Mr. Orme

Despite all the special offers and inducements, it is obvious that the mining strike is no nearer a solution. Therefore, will the Secretary of State take the initiative in getting talks resumed? The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that proposals are still on the table at ACAS and that the NUM is prepared to negotiate on them. Will the Secretary of State now play his part by bringing the NCB back to the negotiating table?

Mr. Walker

The position of the talks is best described by the president of the NUM, who categorically says that he has not moved an inch since 6 March. The whole nation knows that that is the position, in spite of all the efforts made by the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme). There could be no better pressure to reach a sensible agreement than for the Labour party and the TUC to tell the NUM that until it abides by proper principles of picketing, instead of violence, they will have nothing to do with it.

Mrs. Clwyd

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall take it after questions.