HC Deb 09 November 1984 vol 67 cc324-44 9.36 am
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe)

As we start the first foreign affairs debate of the Session today, the whole House is bound to be aware of the extent to which the world scene is overshadowed by two tragic events—in Ethiopia and in India.

The first dark shadow over our debate is cast by the fate of hundreds of thousands of people who have died, or are near to death, as a consequence of the catastrophic drought in Ethiopia, and, alas, in other parts of Africa. During the past two years we have made available almost £13 million worth of food aid and disaster relief supplies to Ethiopia. We have taken the lead in the Community to expand and speed up the relief effort. Our prompt response has been followed by many countries in East and West; and there has rightly been a surge of sympathy and support from all over the country.

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development will deal with this major issue in more detail at the end of the debate. I should like to assure the House simply that famine relief in Ethiopia and Africa generally is, and will remain, an urgent priority for the Government.

Many hon. Members have already expressed their feelings at the more personal tragic event — the senseless, cowardly assassination of the Indian Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi. The House will know that Her Majesty's Government and the British people totally condemn the tiny minority of people here who have sought to exploit, and—still more shocking—to rejoice at, this evil deed.

I had the privilege just a year ago of seeing Mrs. Gandhi at work in her own country. That was during her skilful and engaging chairmanship of last year's highly successful Commonwealth Heads of Government conference in New Delhi. I can add my own testimony and deep regret that Mrs. Gandhi's death has deprived India of a great leader and the Commonwealth of a far-sighted world statesman. We share the grief of all true friends of India. We extend our earnest good wishes and our full support to her son as he takes on his new responsibilities.

Mrs. Gandhi's death by assassination is the latest in a world-wide chronicle of terrorism. The outrage at Brighton is fresh in our minds. Few countries have escaped this scourge. Innocent people pay the price of such wanton attacks on civilised society. The most disturbing feature has been the readiness of some Governments to instigate and support terrorism. By our actions, we have made it plain that we will not tolerate the abuse for this purpose of diplomatic missions in Britain, but the threat will be checked only if the major countries are prepared to take strong measures, and, above all, to take those measures together. We have taken the lead in insisting on practical, concerted action. We shall continue to work for vigorous steps to combat terrorism around the world.

I intend to concentrate most of my remarks on the key international issues of East-West relations, developments in Europe and in the middle east. First, I should like to deal briefly with several other topics that are mentioned in the Gracious Speech.

I begin with Gibraltar, about which I have had a number of discussions with the Spanish Foreign Minister. I expect to meet him again quite shortly. As the Gracious Speech makes clear, these discussions have focused upon the implementation of the Lisbon statement. As the House knows, that statement provides for the lifting of restrictions on communications between Spain and Gibraltar, and for the start of negotiations with Spain aimed at overcoming all the differences between us over Gibraltar.

In that statement, Her Majesty's Government clearly reaffirmed our commitment to honour the wishes of the Gibraltar people about their future. I have no doubt that the Lisbon statement offers the best framework for managing our differences with Spain over Gibraltar. We want to see it put into effect at an early date.

In September, I attended the meeting in San Jose of the Foreign Ministers of the Community, together with Spain and Portugal, and the Foreign Ministers of nine central and Latin American countries. The meeting underlined Europe's determination to help in the urgent task of promoting stability and political development in central America.

I made it plain that the United Kingdom, together with her European Community partners, is giving its wholehearted support to the Contadora process. We believe that that process offers the best hope for achieving stability, prosperity and democracy in that part of the world. To demonstrate our practical support for that process, the Community Foreign Ministers expressed their willingness to give additional aid to the region. The roots of the conflict are indigenous to central America, but they have been exploited by those who have little interest in the establishment of truly democratic government.

In recent days there have been reports of further arms supplies to Nicaragua. We share the concern that has been widely expressed about the possibility that this shipment included high-performance fighter aircraft. It is an integral part of the Contadora proposals that armaments should be scaled down and not built up. It would be most regrettable if any steps were taken at this stage to introduce weapons systems that would inevitably be seen as a threat to other countries in the region, and that would set back the hopes of a successful outcome to the Contadora negotiations. The situation is one that in our view calls for the greatest possible restraint on all sides.

We were glad to welcome El Salvador's return to democracy, but in Nicaragua we became increasingly concerned about the conditions for the election campaign. Many hon. Members will have seen reports that, over a period of many months, the opposition parties were effectively intimidated and often physically harassed by Sandinista mobs — "divine mobs", as they were described by the Nicaraguan Minister of the Interior. As a result, both main opposition parties decided to withdraw from the election. In those circumstances, there was no possibility of a genuinely free and fair contest, however orderly the polling may have appeared to visitors who spent the last few days in Nicaragua.

In our considered judgment—a view shared by the great majority of our European partners—it would have been quite wrong to send official observers to watch the final moments of an election of which the earlier stages were so fundamentally flawed.

Mr. Denis Healey (Leeds, East)

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will have seen that his French colleague, M. Cheysson, told the Assembly in France two days ago that he regarded the elections as correct and as a contribution to peace in central America. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree with that?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I have expressed my view about the elections already. There is a difference between the conduct of the elections on the day and the circumstances and background in which those elections have to be conducted in the weeks and months before election day. One has to take acount of such matters as the extent to which the media are controlled, the extent to which intimidation takes place, and the extent to which other elements of the state have a serious impact. In our view, all these things combined to create a sitation in which free and fair elections could not be regarded as having taken place. In El Salvador, a real transfer of power took place; but that was not the position in Nicaragua.

Let me now turn to southern Africa. Some new developments there have been encouraging. We welcome the Lusaka agreement on troop withdrawals from Angola, the Nkomati accord between South Africa and Mozambique and the more recent moves towards a ceasefire in Mozambique.

There seems, too, to be a greater prospect of progress now over Namibia. The diplomatic efforts undertaken by the United States and the direct contacts between those directly involved appear to be making headway. We remain firmly committed to early implementation of Security Council resolution 435. We shall continue to lend our help and support to the negotiations.

However, once again, events inside South Africa have caused concern on both sides of the House. The incident at our Durban consulate, and the South African Government's refusal to return the four men to face charges in the Coventry court, show that the South African Government's own policies can be a major obstacle to stable relations. We wholly reject the idea of any linkage between these two problems.

We have already condemned the South African breach of faith over the Coventry four. The responsibility of the South African Government to bring them to justice is clear cut. The situation in the Durban consulate was not of our making. I will not deny that it faces us with a complex and delicate legal and humanitarian problem, but I am sure that I have the support of the House in seeking, so far as we properly can, to take account of the humanitarian considerations.

The Gracious Speech reaffirmed our commitment to the Falkland Islands. We welcome Argentina's return to democracy, but last week's debate in the United Nations General Assembly showed that Argentina's failure to take any account of the wishes of the islanders is still a fundamental obstacle to any solution. The Argentine resolution insisted on the resumption of negotiations, aimed at transferring sovereignty, as if the brutal invasion of the islands had never taken place. I am pleased that the support for our position in the United Nations remained as firm as last year.

I can assure the House that we shall continue to protect the islanders' right to live peacefully under a Government of their own choosing. We are not prepared to discuss sovereignty over the islands, but we have made sustained and carefully prepared efforts to improve our bilateral relations with Argentina, and we shall persevere in that. We remain convinced that the only effective and realistic way forward is to tackle practical issues step by step.

I turn now to a development that many Members on both sides of the House have been kind enough to describe as a considerable achievement for British diplomacy. I refer, of course, to Hong Kong. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) described our recent exchange on the subject as a "feast of love." I am still recovering from the indigestion caused by those unusually honeyed words.

The draft agreement that was initialled on 26 September was the fruit of long negotiations. The people of Hong Kong are now expressing their views on that agreement, and the assessment office is now receiving and collating those views. The report of this office, together with that of the independent monitoring team, will be laid before the House. I know that hon. Members will want to study them carefully so that at an early opportunity we can have a thorough debate on the draft agreement, but I am already confident that we have secured an agreement that the Government can strongly commend to the people of Hong Kong and to Parliament.

I shall now move to the broader international issues of profound concern to the House. From the moment when I became Foreign Secretary, I have never had any doubt that the greatest and most important challenge that faces the foreign policy makers of the West is to find a way of establishing stable, peaceful relations with the nations of Eastern Europe. That was the principal foreign policy task that the Prime Minister and I set ourselves when this Government were returned to power.

There is now widespread agreement among the Western allies, in both north America and Europe, about the philosophy of the Western approach. Some right hon. and hon. Members may already have studied an important speech made by Secretary of State George Shultz on 18 October in Los Angeles. It deserves study in full, but two points were well orated—that In the nuclear age we need to maintain a relationship with the Soviet Union and that negotiation without strength cannot bring benefits. Strength alone will never achieve a durable peace". Since that speech was made, the people of the United States have re-elected President Reagan and Vice-President Bush with an overwhelming majority. We congratulate them on a signal victory and wish them well in their second term of office. We look forward to the same spirit of co-operation and shared values that characterised their first four years. President Reagan's statements of policy have been fully in tune with those of the wider Alliance. For example, in his speech to the United Nations General Assembly on 24 September he made very clear his wish for greater understanding between the United States and the Soviet Union and for progress on arms control. This week after his re-election he has reaffirmed that message—and this week there can be no doubt that President Reagan spoke for the American people.

I was able to explore the call for a fresh start contained in President Reagan's speech when I met Mr. Gromyko a few days later, for the fourth time this year, in New York. On every occasion of that kind, and indeed at my meeting in July with President Chernenko alongside Mr. Gromyko, I have been struck not so much by the differences between us, although they are, of course, real and substantial, as by the similarity of what we say are the basic aims of our people. This similarity in what we say is reflected in both sides' stated desire to break the spiral of the arms race, in both sides' declared and shared aim of better relations between East and West—often, indeed, in apparently similar words and phrases. Time and again, I have found that we are separated not so much by the words, that we use as by the meaning that we attach to them.

I believe that it must be our task to try to bridge that gap and to reconcile in a realistic and practical way our differing approaches with our common underlying interest in the safety and security of the world. That is why I am glad that Mr. Gromyko has accepted my invitation to make a return visit to London in 1985. That is also why I welcome the opportunity of discussions with Mr. Gorbachev, who will be here in London next month on a parliamentary visit organised by the British group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union. He will be the most senior Soviet Politburo member to come to Britain for many years and we shall use these discussions to impress upon the Soviet leaders the sincerity and commitment of the Western nations to the search for peace and stable relations. I shall convey the same message in the eastern European capitals which I plan to visit in the course of the next 12 months.

The West's prime objective is, and will remain, genuine, balanced and verifiable measures of arms control. I am sure that the House agrees that the whole world would applaud a positive and practical Soviet determination to pursue the same objective. The Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Leeds, East are shortly to visit Moscow. I hope that when they go there they will convey the same message. I hope, too, that they will discard the obsession, which seems to be recently acquired in the case of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East, with the idea of Britain acting unilaterally. I must tell them that this would emasculate the protection offered by the Alliance not just to Britain but to our neighbours and would secure nothing in the way of progress towards genuine and balanced arms control.

Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)

Will my right hon. and learned Friend suggest to the Opposition and make it clear to Mr. Gorbachev that this country hopes not merely for shared good intentions between the West and the Soviet Union but for evident and practical measures to show that the Soviets themselves desire a reduction of tension—for instance, by withdrawing their troops from Aghanistan and encouraging free trade unions in Poland?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I agree with my hon. Friend; and I have raised both those points in earlier discussions with the Soviet Union. We need to move to practical measures of that kind. Indeed, in the whole arms control debate we need practical measures. The Soviet Union in its present tone tends to say that it looks to the West for deeds rather than words in relation to arms control. I am anxious to move from shared statements of objectives and shared identification of the arms control menu to find practical ways of making headway in the much harder but very important business of arms control.

I hope that before the right hon. Member for Leeds, East and his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition go to Moscow they will give some consideration to the views of their Socialist colleagues in Europe. President Mitterrand, for example, does not believe that a policy of unilateral disarmament would advance the cause of peace. Speaking, I believe, to the Bundestag, he said: Our analysis and our conviction, those of France, are that the nuclear weapon, the instrument of deterrence, whether one likes or deplores it, remains the guarantee of peace". The Socialist leaders of opinion in the rest of Europe recognise that we have to live with the realities of the world as it is, and it is high time the right hon. and hon. Members opposite who take a different view learned the same lesson.

The pursuit of dialogue with the East does not do away with the need for effective defence of the West. The Government are fully committed to ensuring NATO's continuing effectiveness as a defensive alliance. I emphasise the word "defence". Alliance leaders stated unequivocally in Bonn in 1982 that we shall never be the first to use force, and that remains our position. We threaten no one. For the continuing strength and cohesion of the Alliance, we owe a great debt of gratitude to Joseph Luns, who spoke and worked fearlessly for the causes in which he believes. To succeed him, the allies are fortunate in having secured the services of a distinguished former holder of my office, Lord Carrington. I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House welcome his appointment. The Government will give him and through him the Alliance, our full support.

I sometimes detect a tendency, not so much in this House as on the part of some of our European partners, to talk as though security among Europeans could be brought about by economic and political means alone and to take for granted the defence of Europe. The reality, of course, is that the security of Europe, and thus the contribution made by member states to the defence of Europe, is an indispensable element of European co-operation as a whole. In this respect, it cannot be said too often that Britain's contribution is pre-eminent.

I am glad to say that that point was plainly recognised by our partners at the 30th anniversary meeting of the Western European Union which I attended, together with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, in Rome two weeks ago. It was one of our allies who pointed out there that the most important aspect of the original WEU treaty is the continuing commitment by the United Kingdom to maintain a very substantial force of British troops and airmen on the mainland of Europe.

The meeting in Rome was of more than a commemorative nature. We in Europe must share the common burden in a way that matches our political and economic strength. We have already done more than many realise. Since 1971, the European share of spending in the Alliance has increased by almost a quarter. Under this Government, the record of the United Kingdom has been particularly good, but the European countries can improve their performance still further. Closer co-operation and greater concentration on value for money can make more effective use of the resources available to us. I believe that the Western European Union can act as a ginger group to maintain what President Eisenhower once described as a core of unity at the heart of NATO". I believe that the WEU playing that role will help to forestall any anxieties that the super-powers may be designing a defence system for a world fit only for superpowers to live in. This relaunching of the WEU comes at the right time, and we shall give it our full support.

Referring to the Community, I should like to stress once again that, following the Fontainebleau agreement, we now have a sound and durable basis for its financial arrangements. We had to fight hard to get it — for Britain, but, as our partners increasingly recognise, for Europe, too.

There are three essential points on which agreement has been reached: first, that the United Kingdom should have a lasting correction of its budget contribution; secondly, that the Community must implement a more rigorous approach to sound financial management; and, thirdly, that the common agricultural policy should no longer take a growing proportion of the Community budget. I want to comment on each of those points.

First, the budget. After the prospective increase in own resources, the new system will reduce our contribution to about half what we would have paid had there been no agreement. It will take effect on the revenue side, with provision for abatement of our contribution being made through the new own resources decision now under discussion. The 1,000 million ecu due to us for 1985 will, in accordance with the Fontainebleau agreement, also be made available in the same way.

The Commission's draft of the decision has been recommended for debate by the Select Committee on European Legislation. The House will, of course, also have a full opportunity to give its views on the terms of the decision when it is presented to Parliament for approval.

Secondly, budget discipline. Agreement on that is a prerequisite for our approval of the new own resources decision. The European Council established two key principles: first, that the maximum level of expenditure to finance Community policies was to be laid down each year; secondly, that net expenditure on agriculture was to increase at less than the rate of growth of the own resources base. Work on a text that will guarantee the effective application of those principles is nearing completion.

This will be the first time that the Council has bound itself to such a ceiling for expenditure — both agricultural and non-agricultural—and to live within it. In the words of a paper tabled in Brussels in November 1983 by M. Jacques Delors, due soon to take over as President of the Commission, from now on Expenditure must be determined by the means available, not the other way round".

Mr. Eric Forth (Mid-Worcestershire)

In view of my right hon. and learned Friend's previous experience in another key position in the Government, so that he knows as much—or more—about this matter as most others, I should like to ask him whether the discussions on financial discipline encompassed any consideration of supplementary budgets and the effect that they can sometimes have in getting round ceilings and limits that are imposed at the beginning of each year? Has that been considered, and will it be part of the mechanism?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

That is an important consideration. It is necessary not to allow devices to be used to enable the mechanism to be escaped from. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to that matter. As he says, the concept is one with which I am familiar. I was pleased that the very sentence that I quoted from the French Finance Minister, as he then was, was almost literally an echo of one of my few statements to appear in The Observer's "Sayings of the Week". I said that finance must determine expenditure and not expenditure finance. I think that I put it slightly more crisply than M. Delors, but we were both on the same track.

That is an important development. With German, Dutch and, increasingly, French support we now have a real opportunity to introduce a sensible balance into how the Community uses its resources.

Mr. Jim Spicer (Dorset, West)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there is already cause for concern? Will he confirm that expenditure has risen to 1.2 per cent. and all the signs are that it is still rising? Those who are in authority in the Commission, particularly in agriculture, can see no way in which we shall not bump up against a new ceiling. How can one control that when one has commitments in advance on the agricultural side?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My hon. Friend has made a point to which I shall refer next. I entirely agree that the way in which the CAP is operated and applied is the key to the long-term solution to the problem. The extent to which surpluses have built up means that it is bound to take time to attack and reduce the problem to which my hon. Friend referred. Of course we must preserve the benefits of the CAP. However, we must avoid guaranteeing, as in practice the CAP has so far, that whatever the market conditions, surplus production will be funded by the Community taxpayer.

The Agriculture Council meeting on 31 March this year put in place some of the key decisions that are necessary to take us in that direction. The important thing is for us to sustain pressure for the application of those principles and their implementation throughout the Community. It will require constant vigilance by members of the Council, and Members of the House and of the European Parliament. It is a long-term exercise. If we can make headway on that, as we must, another great task will face us—to build on Fontainebleau to make the Community work better for all its member states. That will be one of the major challenges for the new Commission. It will be fortunate to have M. Delors as its President. As I have already said, we have worked alongside each other as Finance Ministers. Not just as a result of that stern and invigorating shared experience, which I share in a residual capacity with the right hon. Member for Leeds, East, I have a profound respect for M. Delors' determination to manage the Commission on realistic and practical lines.

We in the United Kingdom have already put forward many practical ideas for the Community agenda. There are, for instance, some simple businesslike institutional changes that could rapidly make a difference. The European Council must be less of a court of appeal and better adapted to giving strategic direction to the Community, telling the Community what the member states, expressing their views to the Council of Ministers, want the Community to do.

Each member state has the equivalent of our own Queen's Speech, setting the agenda for action over the coming years. The European Council should do the same for the Community as a whole. I know that M. Delors shares our view of the need for clear priorities.

Above all, we want practical measures and tangible benefits for the peoples of the Community. When our lorry drivers can travel without undue frontier delays in continental Europe; when it costs the same to fly from London to Paris as from New York to Washington; when British insurers can compete freely in German markets; then, and only then, shall we be making a reality of some of the most basic provisions of the treaty of Rome.

A genuine Community-wide market should create a more competitive climate in which European business can prosper and Europe can compete better in world markets. That is the way to create the lasting jobs that Britain, like the rest of Europe, so badly needs.

The Community must also fulfil its responsibilities in the world. Let me give three examples of how it is seeking to do so. The first, of course, is enlargement, from 10 members to 12. The negotiations are now reaching their concluding stages. We want to see them completed by the end of the year, so that Spain and Portugal can enter the Community on 1 January 1986. Secondly, the Community needs to complete the current negotiations on a successor to the present Lome convention, governing its relations with 64 African, Caribbean and Pacific states.

Thirdly, there is political co-operation. Almost all the problems that I discussed earlier in my speech have been the subject of discussion with our Community partners. That growing habit of concerted action is increasingly valuable because it enables us to make our joint influence felt across the whole field of foreign affairs.

Nowhere has there been a more distinctive European approach than over the problems of the middle east. Ten days ago I paid a brief visit to Lebanon, for talks with President Gemayel and Prime Minister Karame. I went on from there to Israel. I was able to have there very friendly and open discussions with all the senior Ministers in the new Israeli Government. I also had a most useful meeting with Palestinian representatives.

I returned from those visits more than ever convinced of the need for an end to the tragic suffering of the Lebanese people, and for early movement towards a settlement of the central Arab-Israel dispute. In Lebanon I was able to reaffirm to President Gamayel our support for the withdrawal of all foreign forces from his country. The Government of Israel left me in no doubt that they wish to withdraw their forces from Lebanon soon, subject to the negotiation of satisfactory security arrangements for Israel's northern border. The next step must be direct contacts. I am therefore very glad that the UN Secretary-General has taken the initiative to convene talks between Israeli and Lebanese military representatives.

Our policy on the Arab-Israel dispute is clear and consistent. I explained it in the same terms to Israeli Ministers and Palestinian representatives: the same terms as I have also used in discussions with Arab leaders. It is based on the firm belief that no durable settlement is possible without acceptance by the parties of two basic principles. These principles, which cannot be repeated too often, are Israel's basic right to a secure and peaceful existence, and the Palestinians' right to self-determination. The role of the United States, with its unique position of influence, will remain a vital one.

I shall be discussing with the new American Administration how best to give the search for peace in the middle east the high priority it deserves. We and our European partners will continue to do all in our power to help that process forward.

Mr. Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber)

Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman concludes his comments on the middle east, will he comment on the Iraq-Iran war? Does he agree that that is hardly a good example of a coherent approach by the European Community in that Iraq is basically armed by France, and Iran, although it does not receive arms from us, is now trading more with Britain than it did in the days of the Shah, with most of the resulting money going on arms?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The approach of the European Community to the need for an end to the Iran-Iraq conflict is based essentially on persuading the parties to recognise the need to bring the conflict to a conclusion. Doing that head-on has so far made little headway. The approach that has made headway is the delimitation of the conflict and the agreement, which has largely been observed, to refrain from attacks on civilian targets. The most hopeful approach currently on the table is the way in which the Japanese have put forward a development of that, seeking to limit the scope of the conflict rather than trying, which seems so difficult, to bring it to an end.

I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say no more than that. I have tried to deal with most of the major topics, but I was about to say that no opening speech in a foreign affairs debate can deal with all of them. That is one of the subjects that I have not been able to cover. Another is the Cyprus question. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development will be glad to cover further subjects that arise during the debate.

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North)

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Sir G. Howe

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not give way to him. I must draw my remarks to a close now.

Mr. Corbyn

Cyprus.

Sir G. Howe

I shall not deal with it en passant. My right hon. Friend will comment on it at the end of the debate if the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) raises the matter.

I want in conclusion to underline one factor. The complexities of foreign affairs do not lend themselves to the simplistic recipes of the ideologue, nor the contortions of those who are prepared to cast away principles in the vain pursuit of a spurious party unity. This Government have restored respect for Britain abroad.

We have shown ourselves a firm and reliable member of the North Atlantic Alliance. We have shown ourselves determined in the search for stable and peaceful relations between east and west. We have achieved at Fontainebleau a major advance for the European Community. We have kept up and strengthened our partnership with our friends in the Commonwealth. We have shown in the Hong Kong agreement that steady and determined diplomacy can achieve results.

In a dangerous and unstable world we have shown that this country stands for civilised and democratic values. That is the basis on which we shall continue to promote British interests in the coming year.

10.13 am
Mr. Denis Healey (Leeds, East)

Since our last debate, the Foreign Secretary has achieved one impressive success in the agreement on Hong Kong. He was rightly congratulated by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House on his achievement. I am sorry that the love feast gave him a touch of indigestion, but I hope to correct that this morning by administering a slightly more balanced diet.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman was right to say that, since we last debated foreign affairs, some terrible events have occurred in other parts of the world. The murder of Mrs. Gandhi has imposed the worst strains on the largest democracy in the world since the bloodshed which attended its birth. The tragic famine in Ethiopia has reminded us of a catastrophe which already faces all the African peoples just south of the Sahara, right from Sudan in the east to Senegal in the west. It reminds us, too, that 500 million of our fellow beings today are suffering from chronic malnutrition all over the world and that 15 million children die from hunger and related diseases every year. That is the equivalent of the death toll at Hiroshima every three days. If the Ethiopian tragedy has done nothing else, I hope that it has directed the attention of Governments and peoples to these horrifying facts.

Meanwhile, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman had to admit, the war in the Gulf continues in the middle east and peace in the near east still remains extremely fragile. The martyrdom of the majority of the people of South Africa continues. There is still civil war in El Salvador and Guatemala, and there is an imminent risk of American military intervention in Nicaragua. The British taxpayer is still forking out £2 million a year for every family living on the Falkland Islands. Meanwhile, the world's debt problem is growing steadily worse, threatening political stability in the Third world and financial disaster for the western world. Above all, the arms race continues unabated and is now entering its most dangerous phase since the first nuclear bombs were exploded at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Many of these problems were necessarily left untouched in recent months because of uncertainty about the result of the American election—and, more so, the difficulty of getting coherent American attention devoted to these problems while the election was proceeding. But President Reagan's re-election removes all excuse for continuing to ignore these clamant problems. I shall try to deal shortly, inevitably, with each of them in turn, starting with the arms race.

What worries many of us most is that both sides—the Russians and the Americans—are now deploying new weapons which will greatly increase the risk of war and make arms control much more difficult. Cruise missiles capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads are being deployed by the Russians and by the United States, and both sides are deploying missiles whose flight time is so rapid that the reaction to the first information that they have been fired will have to be taken by computers and not by political decision. The SS22s in East Germany and Czechoslovakia could hit the cruise bases at Molesworth and Greenham common just three minutes after we first knew that they were on their way.

On top of this, the United States Administration have decided to try to deploy an anti-satellite system in outer space and to develop the so-called "star wars" system of defence against ballistic missiles. If these two developments came to fruition, they would threaten the whole basis of stability on which the nuclear balance has lasted for the last 30 years. At this moment, NATO Governments are considering proposals to shift NATO strategy towards deep strike into eastern Europe and western Russia. If it were adopted, that strategy again would be bound to be met by a Soviet strategy involving deep strikes against western Europe and the United Kingdom.

The extraordinary feature to ordinary people is that this new development in the arms race on both sides is taking place at a time when leading scientists, both in the Soviet Union and in Europe and the United States, have come to the conclusion that if either side were ever to explode even a fraction of its existing nuclear arsenals in war there would be a danger of creating so much soot in the upper atmosphere as to blot out the sun for months. It would be condemning its own people to a lingering death in conditions of arctic night and it is even possible that all human life and plant life in the northern hemisphere would come to an end.

Yet Her Majesty's Government not only ignore these findings; they actually attack them, as the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Ancram), did the other day, as a blatant propaganda exercise deliberately seeking to mislead people about civil defence. I can think of no more damaging and inadequate response to this new finding than that, and I hope that the Minister of State will totally disavow the extraordinarily inadequate and damaging reaction of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland.

The United States Administration are at least taking those findings seriously. They are to spend $50 million over the next five years in examining the concept of nuclear winter in more detail, and they will undoubtedly make changes in their policy, not only on civil defence but on strategy, in consequence of that examination. I am sorry that the Foreign Secretary made no reference to that new development.

Mr. Wilkinson

Is not the right hon. Gentleman off course by 180 degrees on the question of deep strike into Warsaw pact countries? The whole purpose of SACEUR strategy and the follow-on forces interdiction strategy is to raise the nuclear threshold, with precision munitions of a conventional kind to check the follow-through — the second echelon. As far as the strategic defence initiative and ballistic missile defence are concerned, the whole purpose of the investigation being conducted by the United States Administration is to make a pre-emptive nuclear strike incredible. The possibility of a nuclear night, the awesome apocalypse of which the right hon. Gentleman has given us a dreadful description, should be diminished rather than enhanced by such developments.

Mr. Healey

I wish that I was as innocent as the hon. Gentleman. The fact is that SACEUR has presented the follow-on forces concept as related to the air-land battle strategy of the United States army, which envisages the use of chemical and nuclear weapons for deep strike as well as the use of conventional weapons. One of the problems of the emerging technology weapons is that they are dual-capable and that there is therefore a great risk that, even if they were used in the conventional mode, the enemy could not afford to assume that they were not carrying nuclear warheads. That strategy would therefore greatly increase the possibility of war. I am glad to see from the hon. Gentleman's nods that he secretly agrees with me.

Mr. Wilkinson

As deterrents.

Mr. Healey

On the point about "star wars", the trouble is that what the United States may see—if it works—as something enabling it to prevent a Soviet pre-emptive strike may appear to the Russians to be preparation for an American first strike by guaranteeing the invulnerability of the rest of American forces to Soviet retaliation. The hon. Gentleman must accept that many people involved in defence over the past 30 years on both sides of the Atlantic have that misgiving about the "star wars" strategy. I am glad to see that, even if the hon. Gentleman is not nodding, he is looking thoughtful. That is progress.

The one encouraging development since the American election is the fact that there is some evidence that President Reagan is genuinely seeking to reach an agreement on arms control or disarmament with the Soviet Union. However, I believe that he probably genuinely wanted agreement last time he was in office, but was prevented by bureaucratic in-fighting between the White House, the State Department, the Arms Control and Development Agency and the Department of Defence from producing a coherent approach to the problems of arms control which had the slightest chance of getting to first base. In the coming days, we shall all watch anxiously for any changes of personnel—or, indeed, structure—in the American President's approach to arms control in his second term which will give a better chance of success.

Europe cannot afford to wait until the United States has sorted out its familiar bureaucratic muddles. I was pleased by one suggestion apparently made by the Foreign Secretary. I hope that I did not misunderstand him. Searching in the bran tub of his woolly rhetoric for the nuggets of meaning is sometimes a tiring and exhausting job. However, the Foreign Secretary seems to suggest that Britain should lead the way in this area. I strongly agree with him on that point. Under Prime Ministers of both parties — Lord Stockton and Lord Wilson — British Governments have taken initiatives which in the end were accepted by the United States and led to agreement with the Soviet Union. The Opposition greatly welcome the Government's invitation to Mr. Gorbachev to visit this country next month. However, what policies are we to put forward, and what initiative do we propose to break the existing deadlock?

The Foreign Secretary referred to Mr. Shultz' s admirable sentiments in a recent speech in Los Angeles, but more than two months have passed since, on 2 September, Mr. Chernenko put four proposals to the Western powers, the acceptance of any one of which, he said, could break the deadlock and lead to the resumption of general negotiations on disarmament. His first proposal was an agreement to stop the militarisation of outer space. His second was for a mutual freeze on the development and deployment of nuclear weapons. Third, he suggested that America should follow Russia's unilateral pledge not to use nuclear weapons first. Fourth, he proposed ratification of the test ban treaties negotiated in 1974 and 1976. What is more, Mr. Chernenko make it explicity clear in that interview that Russia was no longer insisting on the removal of existing American missiles from Europe before the talks began.

Now that the American election is over, that shift in the Soviet position requires an immediate response from the West. I hope that the Government are arguing to the United States that we should immediately accept a ratification of the two test ban treaties, and that we would be prepared for at least a moratorium for a period of months—which I understand is under consideration in Washington—on the testing of anti-satellite weapons. The Russians have put forward concrete proposals which represent an important shift in the position which they held as recently as last summer, and a Western response is required. Provided that we can get the process started, there is a strong case — it appears to be under consideration in Washington—for merging the strategic arms reduction talks and the intermediate nuclear force negotiations.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman made some points about unilateral action proposed by my party. What we have proposed is that he should agree now to include the existing British nuclear forces in the arms talks. How can he justify unilaterally keeping the British nuclear weapons out of the talks about disarmament—whether in the European context of the INF talks, or in the START context—when he knows as well as I do that SALT I and SALT II, which he claims to support, tacitly took account of the size of the British and French nuclear forces?

How can the right hon. and learned Gentleman twit us with unilateralism when he proposed unilaterally to increase the striking power of the British deterrent by a factor of at least six? The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not yet told us how many warheads on the D5 missile he plans to order for his proposed Trident force. He should now listen to what is being said by representatives of the services through the Ministry of Defence, and by many of his own Back Benchers, about the undesirability of proceeding with the highly expensive, highly dangerous and untested Trident programme, and agree that henceforward he will put all Britain's strategic nuclear weapons into the arms talks. There is no question but that the refusal of the British and French Governments to do so during the INF talks was one major cause of their breakdown.

Mr. Forth

Does the right hon. Gentleman have any problem with the attitude of the Socialist Government in France on this matter? President Mitterrand is pledged to increase the effectiveness of France's independent force because he believes, from a Socialist point of view, that that is the best way in which to talk peace.

Mr. Healey

I disagree with the president of France, and I told him so when the leader of my party and I met him a fortnight ago. I believe that French defence policy is reaching the point at which its internal contradictions will require some painful choices. I am glad to say that I shall be chairing a discussion between French and British defence experts at Avignon in a few weeks' time.

I think that the Foreign Secretary will agree that progress on disarmament is bound to be limited unless there is also progress on some of the political issues that divide the Soviet Union from the West. I agree with him —again, if I read his code correctly—that the middle east is probably the best area to start. It seems that the United States and the Soviet Union have reached some understanding about how to handle the dangers of the war in the Gulf. Indeed, we have the astonishing spectacle of the United States and the Soviet Union as co-belligerants with Iraq, one of the partners in the Gulf war, to ensure that Iran does not win. I do not ask the Foreign Secretary to comment on these delicate matters, although I see from the smile that is playing around his benign features that he might go some way towards agreeing with me about the irony of that situation.

Is it not time for Washington and Moscow to resume the discussions that started seven or eight years ago between Mr. Vance and Mr. Gromyko on limiting arms supplies generally to the middle east and other areas of tension? Those discussions were broken off in 1977 for a variety of reasons. It would appear that there is an overwhelming case for resuming them now and I do not believe that any western country has derived any long-term benefits by selling arms widely to both sides in the middle east war. Earlier this year, we had the extraordinary spectacle of the West looking like losing a large part of its oil supplies because French Super Etendard aircraft launched French Exocet missiles against tankers in the Gulf. The response to that would be the mining of the Gulf by Iran with French mines dropped by French torpedo boats. The time has come for a serious attemptt to limit arms supplies in the middle east and other parts of the world.

In central America, an essential part of the Contadora process, which the Foreign Secretary endorsed, is the cessation of arms supplies to countries in the area. The same is true for the subcontinent. There is no doubt that America's decision to rearm Pakistan since the Russians invaded Afghanistan has led to an Indian response that is creating a new arms race on the subcontinent. The consequences of that could be especially dangerous after the murder of Mrs. Gandhi and in view of the difficulty that India now faces.

Perhaps I might make a philosophical comment about the middle east. It seems that the lesson of post-war western policy in the middle east is that no external power makes long-term gains by unilateral intervention. Britain and France learned that in 1956 and the United States has learned it repeatedly, most notably in the Lebanon. I recall that possibly our most distinguished post-war ambassador in the middle east, Sir Humphrey Trevelyan, prefaced his book on his experience with a couplet from Hilaire Belloc which ran: Decisive action in the hour of need,

Denotes the hero but does not succeed. We, the French and the Americans have learned that and the middle east powers have found it well-nigh impossible to exercise lasting influence outside their countries. Egypt twice tried to make a permanent constitutional link with Syria and failed. Syria is no more able to control what happens between the warring parties in the Lebanon than was Israel, Britain or France before her. In those circumstances, the most sensible thing is for the external powers at least to try to agree not to intervene against each other's interests and to try to create a framework in which the internal problems are less dangerous to world stability. It is not possible to achieve stability in the middle east unless the Soviet Government is involved in the process. We have already learnt that in the Gulf. I believe that the same will prove equally true in the Lebanon and in the search for an Israeli-Arab solution.

The Foreign Secretary visited Israel and the Lebanon recently. I think that he agrees that an Israeli withdrawal is likely to require an effective UNIFIL presence which is substantially larger than that which exists at the moment, and possibly a somewhat expanded mandate. The Foreign Secretary knows as well as I do that that will require Soviet agreement in the Security Council. Every Arab country now agrees that Russia should be involved, as does every European country, except President Mubarak and the Foreign Secretary who have adopted the advice of that great Algerian holy man, St. Augustine: Give me chastity and continency—but not yet. I think that the Foreign Secretary said in a recent speech that Russia should be involved but that the time for that has not yet come. If I read the right hon. and learned Gentleman's code wrongly, perhaps he will answer.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I would not want the right hon. Gentleman to be under any misunderstanding. It is plainly sensible for Russia to be involved in the sense of participating in discussions on issues such as the Gulf war and the future of UNIFIL. It is clearly desirable for such regional issues to be the subject of discussion by the superpowers and more widely. I have discussed these subjects with Mr. Gromyko because of the practical reason that the right hon. Gentleman gave in regard to UNIFIL, for example. The only difference between us concerns the comparable role of a conference along the lines proposed by the Soviet Union. I do not begin to doubt the need for discussion and consultation.

Mr. Healey

I am immensely grateful to the Foreign Secretary for making that clear—it was not quite so clear from his speech of about one month ago. I do not believe that it is possible to make progress without involving the Soviet Union. Everyone must accept that.

As to the Arab-Israeli conflict, I agree with the Foreign Secretary that it is desperately desirable that we try to reach a long-term settlement. However, he must agree that there can be no settlement unless the United States is prepared to use its influence with Israel to get its participation in a settlement. President Reagan's last proposal was rejected out of hand by the Israeli Government. It is worth remembering that the only American President who has used American influence in this sense was another Republican just after an election in 1952. President Eisenhower used his influence and prevented the Israelis from diverting the Jordan river from surrounding Arab countries. There will be no progress on Israel unless President Reagan is prepared to follow that precedent.

There is some sign of progress in Africa. It seems possible that Cuba might be prepared to withdraw its troops from the Horn and from Angola. In the latter case, the last excuse for South Africa's holding up an agreement on Namibia will have disappeared. I must confess that the Government have not commanded much confidence in regard to the robustness of their approach to South Africa on these issues. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, who returns from Poland today, has been following a policy of doormat diplomacy with Mr. Botha. That is highly regrettable.

What specific action will the Government take against the South African Government to illustrate their displeasure at the South African Government's breaking of a solemn promise by not returning the Coventry four to face trial? South Africans are used to rough words. The favourite nursery rhyme of South African mothers is: Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. The South African Government broke a solemn obligation, and the British Government threatened to take specific action about it. We want to know what that action is.

Regarding the three Indians who remain in our consulate in Durban, I was glad to hear the Foreign Secretary say that he regarded humanitarian considerations as paramount. I understand that they are still prevented from seeing their lawyers, although the lawyers were recently informed that they now have leave to appeal to the Supreme Court in Bloemfontein. When the Minister replies, I hope that he will assure us that the Government are prepared to allow the lawyers of those men to visit them to receive instructions for that possible appeal.

Many hon. Members are greatly worried about central America. Talks have recently begun between Mr. Duarte and Mr. Ungo, which offer at least a chance of ending the disastrous civil war in El Salvador. Elections were held in Nicaragua, which were regarded by all the British hon. Members who attended them, including the hon. Member for Leicestershire, North-West (Mr. Ashby), all 400 American unofficial observers who attended them and by the French Foreign Secretary, as free and fair. Criticisms can and have justifiably been made about the attitude of the regime earlier in the summer, but the regime was undoubtedly prepared, if necessary, to delay the elections until January. Mr. Arce told Dr. Cruz that at a meeting in Rio a month ago.

All observers on the spot and all British correspondents, such as those for the Financial Times, The Guardian and The Times, agreed that the support received for the Sandinista Government represented the overwhelming view of the people of Nicaragua. It is worth reminding ourselves that President Reagan in his magnificent triumph in the United States won only 30 per cent. of the total electorate. He got 60 per cent. of a 50 per cent. poll. By contrast, in Nicaragua Mr. Ortega got more than 50 per cent. of the total electorate—nearly 70 per cent. of an 82 per cent. poll. If the Government really believe in self-determination and the sovereignity of independent states, they must note those facts and insist that the United States also notes them.

I deeply regret that the Government have not joined their European partners in speaking out against recent American intervention in Nicaragua. The United States Administration have violated the ruling of the International Court of Human Rights, which was made in the Hague in June, by mining the harbours in Nicaragua. They have violated the United Nations charter and the treaties of the Organisation of American States.

During the election campaign, President Reagan encouraged the recruitment of volunteers to fight with the Somozista forces. That is a violation of America's own Neutrality Act. He allowed the publication of a CIA manual—it makes the Mafia look like a vicarage tea party — which is a guide to terrorists about how to employ criminals to murder people who stand in the way of the success of terrorism. The Gracious Speech commits the Government to fighting terrorism, and, according to the Foreign Secretary, we are supported by other Governments in that. What representations has he made to the United States' Government about the publication of the Central Intelligence Agency manual? I am prepared to give way if he wishes to answer that now. I see that he is writing furiously. When the Minister replies he may, or may not, give us an answer.

Many hon. Members will remember how, in the aftermath of an earlier American election, the CIA bounced the new President into a disastrous foray against Cuba—the Bay of Pigs affair. In recent days, it appears that something similar is happening in the United States. If the Foreign Secretary cares that European public opinion should support the alliance with the United States, as I do, it is his duty to intervene now and to warn the United States' Government how Europe would regard a third invasion by American troops of Nicaragua since the first world war.

Nicaragua has the same rights to self-determination and sovereignty as the Falkland Islands or any other part of that great sub-continent. One of the dangers that lies behind the risk of an American intervention is its effect on public opinion in Latin America. There is strong anti-Yankee feeling there now, not least because most countries' living standards have been depressed to pay off debts to American banks, which were often incurred by earlier regimes. That is true of Argentina. The debt burden continues to grow. The strain on the banks has greatly reduced banking confidence and has led to the nationalisation by a British Conservative Government of a bank in Britain and by an American Conservative Government of a bank in the United States. Defaults have already begun. Some months ago Bolivia announced that it would not service its debts, and Peru appears to be on the point of doing so now. None of the Governments or banks dares describe what is happening because it would affect their balance sheets, but plainly defaults have begun. If America took military action against Nicaragua, the tidal wave of anti-Yankee feeling in Latin America could lead to a chain reaction of defaults and, indeed, to the fall of many Latin American Governments.

The ultimate threat is not to western banks. It is already clear that western banks that are in trouble will be nationalised and that Governments will print the money to pay for their nationalisation. Indeed, Mr. Leutwiler, the chairman of the Bank for International Settlements, invited them to do that at the last meeting. The consequences for the Third world of the loss of access to credit could be disastrous. The best proof of that is what is happening now in Africa.

I shall conclude with the implications of the famine in Ethiopia, which will be dealt with in greater detail later. We must accept that the Ethiopian famine is only the best dramatised case of a famine that is probably equally severe in Chad and Bangladesh, and which cuts a great swathe across Africa, south of the Sahara from the Sudan to Senegal. I read in the Daily Telegraph yesterday that Germany and France have given four times as much cereal aid and Holland, with its tiny population, five times as much aid as Britain has. I should like the Minister responsible for aid to tell the House whether he agrees with those figures.

In recent years, the West has undoubtedly shown a callous cruelty to the growing problem of starvation in the Third world. The World Bank, led by one of the most Conservative American bankers, Tom Clausen, told the assembled Finance Ministers at the International Monetary Fund World Bank meeting two months ago that unless it got $2 billion immediately, the spectre of disaster would appear throughout Africa south of the Sahara. He was turned down flat by the United Kingdom, the German Government and the American Government. What is now happening in Africa is a direct result of that failure to respond to an urgent demand by the World Bank. Even after we had seen those tragic pictures of famine in Ethiopia on our television screens, the British representative at a meeting of the International Fund for Agricultural Development refused to contribute any money to keep it going because of an arcane bureaucratic wrangle between OPEC and the Western powers.

That is just not good enough. The other day one of the world's leading figures said this: This poor south will judge the rich north. And the poor people and poor nations—poor in different ways, not only lacking food but also deprived of freedom and other human rights—will judge those people who take away these goods from them, amassing to themselves the imperialistic monopoly of economic and political supremacy at the expense of others. That was not Mr. Chernenko speaking; it was His Holiness the Pope speaking during his tour of Canada just before the IMF meetings.

I hope that that will open the eyes of Government and bureaucracy to the urgency of the problem. I do not deny that the problems are overwhelmingly difficult and complex. As Lord Cameron wrote in The Times, there is an urgent need to set up permanent contingency arrangements for emergency action in cases of extreme tragedy, such as that in Ethiopia. We must hold massive stocks of food on the spot in areas likely to be subject to famine. We know that those stocks exist; they have been maintained at enormous cost by members of the European Community. There is a crying need for agricultural development, and there is a crying need to give the countries where climate, or the poverty of the land, offer no prospect of them feeding themselves, the means to earn money with which to buy the food that they need.

I do not wish to dwell further on the past, but I would say this to the Foreign Secretary—I said it to him in a letter a week ago. In January, the Government offered $200 million to a special IDA fund — the soft loan agency of the World Bank. It was not taken up because other countries refused to match the offer. Will the Government tell us today that they are now prepared to offer that $200 million to the International Fund for Agricultural Development, because that at least would do something to reassure us that they are taking the problem seriously?

I must ask the Foreign Secretary about what happened in the Cabinet meeting yesterday. There are reports that the Chancellor of the Exchequer succeeded in persuading the Cabinet to cut the aid budget, which has already been cut under this Government from 0.5 per cent. of our GDP to one third of 1 per cent. If those reports are true, they will expose all the Government's talk during the past fortnight as odious and cruel hypocrisy. I hope that the Minister will tell us about this when he replies.

The famine in Ethiopia has done much not only to wake the conscience of the world but to make the world aware of the realities of the appalling gap in wealth between north and south. Nothing would do more to restore confidence in the political process in the western world than a major effort by all western Governments to attack those problems at their source, and to offer a joint campaign of attack to the Governments of the Communist countries. Co-operation in this area, offered by the West, would do more than anything else to create a climate in which our other problems could be solved.

During the coming Session we shall judge the Government's performance against the words spoken by the Foreign Secretary this morning. If they fall short in any of the ways that I mentioned, we shall be merciless in opposing them.

10.55 am
Mr. Peter Temple-Morris (Leominster)

I rise in some trepidation after the peroration of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). It is always a pleasure to follow him in debates, and one always enjoys his speeches although one might not always agree with everything that he says. I follow him in this spirit at least; in foreign affairs debates the tradition is and should remain that there is more opportunity for agreement across the Floor of the House than there is in some other subjects that the House must address.

Another reason why I am grateful for being called early in the debate is that it is often difficult for Back-Bench Members, who must sit through foreign affairs debates as the evenings wear on, to select subjects for discussion that their colleagues have not already covered at least three times. I have often waited during debates prepared for at least three subjects for discussion, in various stages of array and disarray. At least on this occasion I can address what I consider to be the most important subject. A tour du monde does not come as well from the Back Benches as it does from the Front Benches, so it is better for us to select one subject. I wish to talk about East-West relations, which are crucially important, and I shall also refer to the recent presidential election in the United States.

Now is the time for progress in East-West relations, and I feel strongly that if we fail now, the damage could be irreparable. I hope that I am not alone in recognising an increasingly relevant role for the United Kingdom in the important progress towards disarmament and world peace. The matter is also crucial because of the recent background, which is not the happiest part of the story. In recent years, there has been far too much cheap Soviet-bashing, sometimes to get easy applause, in too many Western countries, and I fear that we could relapse into the sad state of affairs from which we have all too recently, thank goodness, escaped.

The subject is crucial because of President Reagan's big win in the presidential election. Much now depends on who is appointed to key positions in the White House and elsewhere. I attended the Republican convention, and I can say I am relieved that the size of the President's victory was not repeated in Congress. That is a healthy sign. Although it is not for us to intervene in such matters, perhaps America could do without Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I say that with some knowledge of what his Senate colleagues think about the matter. Happily, to fulfil his pledge in North Carolina, the Senator will, it is to be hoped, remain as chairman of the agriculture Committee.

The Soviets want to talk and want progress, because, although the economics of the arms race may be too much for us, defence takes a crucial proportion of the Soviet budget and hinders their aspirations for the future. However, we should never under-estimate their basic patriotism and determination in the face of their vast loss —much greater than ours—in the second world war. When one visits Russia, one is blind if one does not encounter it, and we should recognise the fact.

It is crucial also to remember that hawks on one side breed all too many hawks on the other. That is what I mean when I say that if we fail now the damage could be irreparable in terms of future possibilities and progress.

We must recognise some of the obstacles to progress in the recent past. One such obstacle is the way in which we tend to talk to each other. That was summed up by Lord Carrington, a knowledgeable and experienced former Foreign Secretary, as megaphone diplomacy. An example is the "Kingdom of Evil" speech—it must be said, now retracted by President Reagan. Such terms are no better than the Soviet Union referring to the President as Hitler. We must avoid descending to that level in international dialogue. That avoidance must be permanent rather than temporary.

We must be thankful that there has been a change in the dialogue between East and West and perhaps the change is not unrelated to the views of the western electorate—

It being Eleven o'clock, MR. SPEAKER interrupted the proceedings, pursuant to Standing Order No. 5 (Friday sittings).