New Ireland Forum

HC Deb 24 May 1984 vol 60 cc1235-42

3. Sir John Biggs-Davison

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what talks he has had with political leaders in Northern Ireland since the publication of the report of the New Ireland Forum.

8. Mr. Latham

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what representations he has received from political parties in Northern Ireland regarding any further political initiative by him since the publication of the report of the New Ireland Forum; what reply he has sent; and whether he will make a statement.

11. Mr. Flannery

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he plans to hold discussions with the Prime Minister or the Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ireland concerning the implications for Northern Ireland of the recently published report of the New Ireland Forum.

12. Mr. Yeo

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what representations he has received on the implications for Northern Ireland of the New Ireland Forum report.

16. Mr. Maclennan

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had about the report of the New Ireland Forum; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Prior

During the past three weeks I have met the leaders of each of the four main constitutional political parties in Northern Ireland to discuss a variety of matters. They and others I have met or who have written to me have expressed a range of views about the implications of the Forum report.

I expect to meet the Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ireland tomorrow during the course of a visit he is paying to London, and expect to meet him and other Irish Ministers from time to time to discuss matters of mutual concern within the framework of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Council.

Sir John Biggs-Davison

Noting the return of Official Unionists to the Northern Ireland Assembly, may I ask my right hon. Friend to give special consideration to the Ulster Unionist Assembly party's discussion paper, well-named "The Way Forward", and not dismiss it as he has sometimes dismissed similar ideas when put forward from the Benches behind him?

Mr. Prior

I have certainly not dismissed this report, which I regard as being encouraging both in its language and in the ideas that it puts forward. I shall never dismiss any suggestion or policy document which in any way starts, and helps to keep going, a political dialogue in the Province.

Mr. Latham

Will my right hon. Friend, who has many friends in this House, confirm that, while he will always listen politely to the views of friendly nations about United Kingdom matters, the paramount consideration of this House will always be the democratically expressed views of the people of Northern Ireland?

Mr. Prior

Yes; and I would make that absolutely plain at all times. The wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, in regard to their sovereignty and to whom they wish to belong, must be respected at all times.

Mr. Flannery

Is it not a fact that very little is moving politically on the question of Northern Ireland? That fits in with what the right hon. Gentleman said about security not being everything and about there being other things as well. Does he agree that to be dismissive about a political attempt to try to solve the problem is useless, because at some time, as in any discussion, all the parties concerned must get round the table? Does he further agree, on reconsideration, that when he said that changing his mind made him similar in some ways to the Ulster Unionists, that was utter nonsense, for they do not change their minds; they are utterly intransingent and do not want to discuss the issues at all?

Mr. Prior

I long for the time when the parties in Northern Ireland get round the table, discuss these matters among themselves and come to an agreement. That has so far proved to be very difficult to achieve.

Mr. Yeo

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the moderate, middle-of-the-road views tend less often to be represented directly to him and that such views are held by a substantial majority of people in this country and certainly in my constituency? Does he further accept that the New Ireland Forum report is at least a well-meaning attempt to bring about an improvement in the situation in Northern Ireland and that any failure to take it seriously would not only be condemned at home but would bring about justified criticism in the international community?

Mr. Prior

We are taking the report seriously and giving it proper consideration. In so far as it impinges on the sovereignty of Northern Ireland, we could not accept it. As the report recognises, any change must be made with the consent and agreement of the Northern Ireland people. We know that any change of that nature will not be forthcoming. We must, therefore, take that aspect into account in framing an answer to this serious document representing the views of the nationalist parties of Ireland.

Mr. Maclennan

Does the Secretary of State accept that when, earlier this week during a radio broadcast, he said that the time had come for a fresh mind to be brought in, many hon. Members recognised his frankness and candour and shared his judgment? Does he further accept that it is not possible to give any kind of leadership in this new situation in Northern Ireland when he is so undecided about what he has to offer?

Mr. Prior

It is not a question of whether I am decided or undecided. I must make it absolutely clear at all times that the policies pursued in Northern Ireland are those of the whole Government, not just of the Secretary of State. I know that the hon. Gentleman has wanted to get rid of me for some time—he may be right—but, while I am in this position, I shall do everything I can to help the sides in Northern Ireland to see a way forward for themselves.

Mr. Stanbrook

As all the proposals in the New Ireland Forum report are based on a single objective—a united Ireland—which is anathema to the majority of the people in Northern Ireland, is the Forum not already a dead duck?

Mr. Prior

The word "duck" seems to have been used a lot this afternoon. I do not believe that the Forum is a dead duck. Parts of the Forum report go further, than any nationalists have gone before, in showing a much greater understanding of the Unionists, position in Northern Ireland. I believe that this is reciprocated to a certain extent by the Unionists' document, which shows a much greater understanding of the nationalist position than has been shown before. That should give us some ground for believing that we can make some progress.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

How could anyone who is not a fool imagine that the prolonged and public flirtation of the Government with the irredentist operation in Dublin, known as the New Ireland Forum, could have any effect but to encourage the IRA in its terrorist and murderous activities?

Mr. Prior

When will the right hon. Gentleman realise that the IRA needs no encouragement? The IRA will take what action it can when it can. The right hon. Gentleman is under a total misapprehension if he believes that, simply by saying that Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom for all time, the IRA will go away. It will not.

Mr. Peter Robinson

Does the Secretary of State agree that the solution to Northern Ireland's problems will come not from the Forum in Dublin, nor from London, but only from Northern Ireland people sitting down and discussing the problems? Does the right hon. Gentleman not feel that the best opportunity for doing that lies within the Assembly and its Report Committee? Will he join me today in appealing to the SDLP to join the other parties which are now prepared to sit down and discuss the problem? What support can the right hon. Gentleman offer to the Report Committee?

Mr. Prior

The hon. Gentleman has made an important and sensible comment. The best people to make an approach to the SDLP are those in the Unionist parties of Northern Ireland. If they will show a willingness to understand the SDLP and its particular difficulties, we could make some progress. I am willing to do all that I can to help.

Mr. Beggs

Will the Secretary of State undertake, when he next meets Dr. FitzGerald in London, to encourage him to ask the Government of the Irish Republic to remove their claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland from the Irish constitution and so assist the discussions presently taking place within Northern Ireland?

Mr. Prior

I often mention that subject to anyone from the Republic of Ireland whom I meet, and it would do much good if it were carried out.

Dr. Mawhinney

When my right hon. Friend met the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) in his capacity as leader of the SDLP, and bearing in mind that Northern Ireland will remain a part of the United Kingdom, did he encourage the hon. Gentleman to spend more time in this House presenting the case of those he represents as the best way forward to help to increase the understanding of the legitimate concerns of the minority community in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Prior

It might be more appropriate if my hon. Friends, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney), did that, rather than me. I think that I have offered enough advice on this subject.

Mr. John Fraser

Will the Secretary of State recognise that while the unity of Ireland may be anathema to some people in Northern Ireland, it is certainly not anathema to the rest of the United Kingdom? Once the long-term aim of unity of Ireland is recognised, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is sufficient in the New Ireland Forum to provide for the preservation of the separate identity and cultural and religious traditions of Northern Ireland within that united Ireland?

Mr. Prior

The hon. Gentleman must also realise that his own party's policy is that there can be no change in the constitution of Northern Ireland without the consent of the people. He knows as well as I that that consent is simply not forthcoming. Therefore, we must work for structures within Northern Ireland which give to the minority community a fair share both in the arrangements that are made for the government of Northern Ireland and in the recognition of their Irish identity.

Mr. Silvester

Is it not encouraging that the Official Unionist party has returned to the Assembly, despite the advice that it may Well have received in the tones that we have heard today, that it was foolish to do so? Is it possible to ask the Assembly whether it would be willing to take part in a discussion on the reaction to the Forum?

Mr. Prior

I very much welcome the return of the Unionist party to the Assembly even if, as I am sometimes told, it was brought about by my indiscretions. If that is the case, perhaps I had better create a few more. Let us hope that the Report Committee will go out of its way to try to recognise the legitimate rights of the minority, as the Unionist document has begun to do.

Mr. Archer

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that his remarks on Norfolk radio will have given comfort to many people who simply want to preserve the status quo? Are they not a broad indication that any attempt on his part to initiate discussions on the report will he lacking in authority and Cabinet support? Are not any talks beginning now likely to be concluded under a Secretary of State who will be much less sympathetic to progress? If that is not the proper construction to be placed on the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, will he seize this opportunity to say what inference should be drawn?

Mr. Prior

That certainly not the proper construction to be placed on my remarks. I reaffirm that the policy that the Secretary of State is asked to pursue is that of the Government. During my period of office I shall do all that I can to promote that policy. I see no earthly reason why that policy should not be one of continuity.

4. Mr. Winnick

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the Government's response to the report of the New Ireland Forum.

5. Mr. Marlow

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government policy toward the report of the New Ireland Forum.

6. Mr. Nicholas Baker

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the conclusions of the report of the New Ireland Forum.

9. Mr. David Atkinson

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the Government's policy towards the recent report of the New Ireland Forum.

13. Mr. McCusker

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has anything to add to his initial response to the report of the New Ireland Forum.

19. Mr. Bellingham

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy on the report of the New Ireland Forum.

Mr. Prior

I have nothing to add to the statement I issued on 2 May, copies of which are available in the Library.

Mr. Winnick

Will not all the paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland be delighted if the British Government reject the Forum's report? Is there not a danger that the right hon. Gentleman's successor could well take a simplistic view and adopt the negative and dismissive attitude of the Ulster Unionists towards the Forum's report?

Mr. Prior

I reject the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question. The people who will object most strongly to any closer relationship with the Republic, particularly over security, are the IRA. That must always be borne in mind in everything that we say or do.

Mr. Marlow

What are my right hon. Friend's views on the remarks of the distinguished commentator, Conor Cruise O'Brien, who said that any move towards an Irish aspect would be seen as a sign that the British will to remain in Northern Ireland was cracking under sustained IRA pressure and "Keep it up, boys"?

Mr. Prior

I quite understand the views which Mr. Conor Cruise O'Brien put forward. That is one of the great difficulties in making any sensible arrangement wth the Republic of Ireland, whether over security or any other matter. I say again that I believe that it is the people of Northern Ireland who must always make up their own minds about this matter and that they will do so regardless, perhaps, of the legislation 'we pass in this House.

Mr. Nicholas Baker

Will my right hon. Friend remind unionists of all parties that there are some matters, particularly security, that should be dealt with on an all-Ireland basis? Will he also avoid any political initiatives that endanger the main objective, namely, that people and parties, dare I say, in Northern Ireland should learn to live together?

Mr. Prior

My hon. Friend's question illustrates only too well the tightrope that has to be walked the whole time in trying to deal wth matters in Northern Ireland, but I agree with his points.

Mr. David Atkinson

Is my right hon. Friend prepared to accept the allegations contained in the report of continued discrimination against Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Prior

I do not think there is any discrimination against Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland. The record of successive British Governments has been completely honourable in Northern Ireland, and one of which we can be justly proud. What we have done there for all sections of the community has been of immense benefit and has brought about immense change in Northern Ireland over the last few years.

Mr. McCusker

Why should the Secretary of State or I take the report of the New Ireland forum seriously when none of its authors now agrees about the contents, when the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic and the Leader of the Opposition there disagree publicly about it, when the Leader of the Opposition in the Irish Republic has sacked one of his front benchers because he disagrees with him, and when the leader of the SDLP publicly disagrees with the deputy leader of the SDLP? As none of the participants seems to know precisely what the Forum was about, why should I or this House take its report seriously?

Mr. Prior

There is always a problem both in the north of Ireland and in the south in getting anyone to agree about anything.

Mr. Bellingham

Does my right hon. Friend agree that generally the response in the United Kingdom to the Forum report has been positive and constructive because many people see it as a blueprint for a closer dialogue with the South? Does he also agree that last week's tragic killings have overshadowed the report? Does he not think it is sad that those killings were carried out by faceless gunmen who have never believed in dialogue and democracy?

Mr. Prior

Yes, Sir. Of course, the purpose of all these dreadful murders is to prevent the making of any satisfactory arrangement that would bring peace to the people of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Freeson

Will the Secretary of State accept that while it is right to be cautious—indeed, he has to be cautious in his response to the New Ireland Forum report —the report provides, if not a blueprint, at least an agenda for a process that is long overdue of genuine political dialogue about the future of Northern Ireland in relation to the Republic as well as to this country? Secondly, does he agree that the people of this country as a whole need to be represented in these matters and that it would be useful to establish a parliamentary forum as well as intergovernmental discussions and to use the Forum report as its agenda?

Mr. Prior

I think that the Forum report is an agenda that must be taken seriously. Whether it will lead to a parliamentary tier or grouping of any sort is a matter for Parliament. However, we must take it, examine it carefully and come forward with suggestions to meet it.

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the politicians and parties who have blocked all constitutional initiatives are in danger of losing the sympathy and respect of the House? Is my right hon. Friend aware that he has the respect, support and confidence of this party in undertaking those initiatives?

Mr. Prior

There is an overwhelming desire in this Parliament, which I think is also portrayed in Northern Ireland by the people, that we should make every effort to arrive at a political solution which, while preserving the right of the people of Northern Ireland to decide for themselves to whom they wish to belong, gives proper recognition to the various needs of the two communities.

Mr. Maclennan

When, on Wednesday, the Secretary of State—apparently recognising his responsibilities—said that he owed it to the people of Northern Ireland to speak out plainly, what did he have it in mind to say? Did he not rather resemble the crumbling and self-absorbed King Lear when he spoke of doing such things that would be the "terrors of the earth" without knowing what they were?

Mr. Prior

I have never been a great expert on King Lear. However, I tell the people of Northern Ireland, as I tell the House, that everyone in Northern Ireland wants peace, but they all want it on their own terms. If we are to get peace, everyone must give up a little of his cherished views, because the end result is greater than the differences.

Ms. Clare Short

Does the Secretary of State agree that the real lesson to be learnt from his frustration during his time in office in Northern Ireland and the failure to get agreement on the New Ireland Forum report is that there is no way out of the present circumstances if we accept that the consent of the small majority in Northern Ireland is a veto to all progress? Is not the lesson that we must look to the opinion of the people of the whole of Ireland and the whole of the United Kingdom to reunify Ireland, with its consent, just as Ireland was partitioned without the consent of the majority of the Irish people?

Mr. Prior

If the hon. Lady's policy were ever accepted, she would start a process of terrorist activity and civil war which she would certainly live to regret.

Mr. Soley

Does the Secretary of State intend to pursue his well-leaked suggestion for an all-Ireland approach to agriculture, the economy and some aspects of security?

Mr. Prior

That is pure speculation and has no regard to my view.