HC Deb 16 May 1984 vol 60 cc347-9
4. Mr. Maxton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next intends to meet the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to discuss the future financing of Scottish local authorities.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. George Younger)

1 will next meet the convention to discuss Scottish local government finance on 22 June.

Mr. Maxton

Will the Secretary of State go to that meeting in sackcloth and ashes, apologise for his past actions and make it clear that he intends to withdraw all his previous legislation against local authorities in view of yet another overwhelming defeat for his party in the last district elections—or does he intend to continue as an arrogant, unelected dictator with no mandate whatever to interfere in Scottish affairs?

Mr. Younger

On the latter part of the question, I have responsibility to look after Scotland's part in the national economy. That is why I must maintain my responsibility to ensure that no one, including local authorities, spends more than the country can afford.

I am still considering which suit to wear.

Mr. Henderson

Will my right hon. Friend make it clear to COSLA that he is determined to continue to protect ratepayers from unreasonable expenditure? In that context, is he not worried that many people who vote in local elections do not pay rates and that many who pay rates do not have a vote? Does he feel that the situation might be improved if expenditure in excess of guidelines were met by a poll tax?

Mr. Younger

I have certainly had no representations of any kind from ratepayers, especially commercial ratepayers, asking for the withdrawal of our legislation to bring rate expenditure under control. I dare say that there may also be a connection between that and the fact that rate increases this year have been roughtly in line with inflation. In other words, there has been no increase in real terms—thanks to the Government's policies on keeping local government spending under control.

Mr. Home Robertson

Has the Secretary of State any idea who will be representing Kyle and Carrick district council on COSLA? Will he bear in mind in all future negotiations that COSLA has a mandate from the people of Scotland which he will never have?

Mr. Younger

When he has been a little longer in the House, the hon. Gentleman may learn not to use the word "never". He may also recall that in 1980 his party had a very similar result to that which it achieved this year, and look what happened to it in 1983.

Mr. Michael Forsyth

When my right hon. Friend meets COSLA, will he point out that at least one of its members—central region—is so flush with funds that it did not even bother to turn up for a meeting with the Manpower Services Commission yesterday to press the TVEI scheme, which had a good chance of bringing £440,000 to schools in my constituency, and that at the end of the last financial year it rushed out and spent £120,000 of its education budget to buy a dry ski slope instead of using that money to provide books and services for the children?

Mr. Younger

I am most interested in my hon. Friend's comments. If that region has so much money, perhaps it will reduce the rate burden on the hard-pressed ratepayers.

Mr. Wilson

Will the Secretary of State explain to COSLA why he refuses to provide any additional money earmarked for curing dampness in houses in Scotland when he is prepared to allow the Treasury to give Northern Ireland more than £40 million of oil revenue to which it is not entitled?

Mr. Younger

On dampness, the most relevant issue for me to discuss with COSLA might be why £22 million allocated for the maintenance of houses in Scotland was forgone last year through the irresponsible decisions of Labour-controlled authorities when it could have been spent on eliminating the worst of the dampness problems.

Mr. Canavan

When the Secretary of State meets COSLA, will he be more truthful than he was last weekend when he told the rump of the Scottish Tories in Perth that their party was doing much better than it was getting credit for in Scotland? As the Tory vote in the district elections slumped to just over 21 per cent., does that not prove conclusively that the Secretary of State has no mandate to intervene in the affairs of Scottish local government and that he should get out and leave the councillors to get on with the job they were elected to do?

Mr. Younger

When it comes to assessing the balance of truth in political statements, I am happy to take on the hon. Gentleman in a contest at any time.

Mr. Malone

When my right hon. Friend next meets COSLA, will he remind it: of a substantial source of revenue of which it has failed to take account—that available from the sale of council houses—and press authorities once and for all to enter into the sale of council housing in a proper manner and not grudgingly as in the past?

Mr. Younger

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. This would not only provide far more funds for eliminating problems such as dampness, which concern Members in all parts of the House, but would be extremely welcome to the individual constituents whom hon. Members claim to represent?

Mr. Dewar

Will the Minister explain to his hon. Friends who seem dismayed, as well as to COSLA, why further help cannot be given for the dampness problem in response to the report of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs? Does he accept that his actions have been miserably inadequate, considering the scale of the problem? Does he recognise that he cannot shrug off the clear, stunning and comprehensive repudiation of his policies which was given at the district council elections? Will he bear that in mind when he makes decisions in the next two or three weeks about general abatement and selective action against those authorities which he considers are overspending?

Mr. Younger

The hon. Gentleman must get the problem of dampness into perspective. The reports considered by the Select Committee showed that about £157 million was probably needed to put right the dampness identified in Scottish housing. As for this year alone £227 million is allocated on the housing revenue account, it is self-evident that if local authorities wish to give dampness top priority they can make a big start on the worst cases immediately.