HC Deb 15 May 1984 vol 60 cc141-3
13. Mr. Fisher

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has any plans to meet leaders of the teachers unions to discuss rates of pay.

Sir Keith Joseph

I meet the leaders of the teachers' unions from time to time, either at their request or at my suggestion, to discuss various matters of common concern. These discussions do not normally cover pay, which is a matter for the Burnham committee. Nevertheless, if any of the teachers' unions should wish to meet me to discuss pay matters, I should be happy to agree.

Mr. Fisher

As the Secretary of State agrees that pay is a matter for the Burnham committee, will he accept the views of the independent chairman of the committee, Sir John Wordie, who says that negotiations are exhausted and that the matter should go to arbitration? Will the Secretary of State use his best endeavours to persuade his representatives on the committee to send the matter to arbitration, in the interests of the children of this country?

Sir Keith Joseph

I have already tried, at some length, to explain why arbitration will make no more money available. That is the reason why I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's views.

Mr. Marlow

If one of my working-class constituents, or one of those of my hon. Friends, goes on strike, he loses one fifth of a week's pay for every day of the strike. In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend told me yesterday that teachers work for 190 days a year, if they go on strike for one day will they lose a 190th part of a year's salary? If not, why not? What is my right hon. Friend going to do about it?

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

Stupid.

Sir Keith Joseph

I do not think that my hon. Friend's question was at all stupid. The answer, unfortunately, depends on the individual contracts between local education authorities and their teachers, and I cannot promise to be the master of the details of all those contracts.

Mr. Radice

The Secretary of State has told the House why, despite the support of the Prime Minister for arbitration for the water workers last year, he is against arbitration this year. Even if the right hon. Gentleman is against arbitration, will he now call in representatives of the trade unions and the employers, as a matter of urgency, to discuss the dispute?

Sir Keith Joseph

No, but I repeat that if any component of either group wishes to see me I shall be glad to see them. However, I cannot produce a magic wand. The dispute will be settled when the teachers decide that the offer, which is still on the table, is fair and realistic.

Mr. Bill Walker

When the Secretary of State meets the teachers' unions, will he draw their attention to the fact that, for almost as long as one can remember, job security has been an element in the pay scales of teachers? The teachers should be reminded of that fact.

Sir Keith Joseph

I have already agreed with my hon. Friend that the teachers enjoy one of the highest levels of job security of all the occupations.

19. Mr. Teddy Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many letters he has received in the last three months concerning the level of teachers' pay.

Sir Keith Joseph

I have received about 40 letters from right hon. and hon. Members, and about 90 from other interested parties and members of the public.

Mr. Taylor

Although I appreciate that the teachers' strike is a difficult and complex issue for us all, does my right hon. Friend agree that strikes such as we have had do not in any way solve the problem of helping children?

Sir Keith Joseph

They actively make it worse for children and damage many other objectives, including the interests of teachers.

Mr. Skinner

Does the Secretary of State understand that he is skating on thin ice when using the argument of supply and demand in relation to teachers' pay, because if that maxim were applied to Members of Parliament and the police, we would not have had an 11 per cent. pay increase this year, because there are plenty of people who are trying to get into this place on the Tory side of the House and the Opposition side? Is he further aware that if the job of chairman of the Tory party had been advertised they might well have got 200 applicants, any one of whom might have got the £5,000 extra for doing no more work, and the chances are that each of those applicants would have done better than the man who has got the job?

Sir Keith Joseph

I accept that the hon. Gentleman would probably have tried to come to this place even if the pay were not what it is. I hope he will accept—though I doubt it—that in normal conditions in Britain, supply and demand at the specified quality is a key factor in settling pay.