HC Deb 09 May 1984 vol 59 cc885-7

3.31pm

Mr. Gordon Brown (Dunfermline, East)

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the new rulings made by the Department of Health and Social Security which are depriving the wives and children of miners now engaged in an industrial dispute of social security benefits to which they are legally entitled.

The matter is specific because an unprecedented and dubious ruling has been made under which loans legitimately given by Scottish social works departments for the relief of temporary destitution are, for the first time, being defined as income and are being deducted from already meagre social security benefits. There is no basis for that ruling in law or regulation, or in anything approved by the House. The matter is important because people already receiving less than anyone else on social security will become still poorer.

Briefly, a miner's wife whose husband receives nothing and who herself receives only 92p a day and is driven to seek loans from the social work department will lose almost all her social security benefit and, on top of that, still have to repay the loans.

More important, the state having minimised its responsibility for the relief of poverty in such circumstances seeks to nullify assistance from other sources. Under the new ruling local authorities, discharging responsibilities laid down by the House, are effectively barred from their duty to relieve immediate destitution. Even charities cannot help. Their gifts can also be calculated as income and be deducted.

The matter is urgent because hundreds of families already impoverished are being subjected to even greater misery, uncertainty and destitution. Mothers and children are now £20 or £30 a week worse off than they would be if the father had deserted them or were in gaol. No one can help. Not only has state help been withdrawn by a law made in 1980, but the help of others is being denied by a new ruling invented in 1984. When the suffering of mothers and children is the issue, this Government are not only walking by on the other side of the road; they are going behind the House's back by ruling against good Samaritans.

The matter is specific, urgent and important because a shameful decision has been made and shamefully translated into action without the House being informed or consulted. Local social security officers have received instructions from Whitehall only by telephone. There is nothing in writing, nothing in regulations, nothing in previous rulings and certainly nothing in the statutes approved by the House. Without the knowledge of the House there has been a sinister distortion of the spirit and letter of decades of social security legislation. A long established practice has been totally disregarded and a new and deeply offensive principle has been invented and applied deliberately to exacerbate poverty and hardship. The House must debate the matter urgently.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the new rulings made by the Department of Health and Social Security which are depriving the wives and children of miners now engaged in an industrial dispute of social security benefits to which they are legally entitled.

The hon. Member will understand that the decision I have to make is whether to give this matter precedence over the business already set down for today or for tomorrow. I have listened carefully to what the hon. Member has said, but I regret that I do not consider the matter which he has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 10 and I cannot therefore submit his application to the House.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This does not arise out of your decision but because my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) has said that the House has not heard of the changes that have been made, apparently over the telephone. The House has not been informed. No Minister has answered at the Dispatch Box for the change in regulations.

What advice, therefore, can you, Mr. Speaker, give to hon. Members on this side of the House who are urging support for the miners' families so that the miners are not starved into submission and are not treated worse than murderers in regard to financial assistance? What advice can you give to ensure that before today is over a Minister comes to the Dispatch Box and explains how the Government have managed to cook the books in this matter?

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I think that we can dispose of the matter because we have a very heavy day in front of us. It is not for me to advise the hon. Gentleman, who is a very experienced parliamentary operator.

Mr. Skinner

That is why I did it.

Mr. Speaker

If I may offer him exceptionally a piece of advice, perhaps he would have a word with his hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), who has today's Adjournment debate.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I understand, when an hon. Member makes an application under Standing Order No. 10, it is normal practice for one Minister at least from the Department concerned to be present. Does it not show the utter contempt felt by the Minister for Social Security., the hon. Member for Brent, North (Dr. Boyson), that he has not come to listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) arguing his case about the hardship being caused?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member knows that I am in no way responsible for who is on the Front Bench at any time.

Mr. Merlyn Rees (Morley and Leeds, South)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is an important issue, otherwise I should not refer to it. I have had the same problem in my constituency. I listened to what my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) said. There is no Minister from the Department here to listen. You, Mr. Speaker, have made it clear that you have no responsibility, and we accept that. However, my hon. Friend has wasted his time unless we can have an assurance that the point is brought to the attention of the Leader of the House or of the Department concerned so that at least we know that the facts of the matter will be considered.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. William Waldegrave)

If it is of help to the House, I can assure the right hon. Member that I shall give to my colleagues an account of the points made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown).