§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
10.45 pm§ Sir William ClarkI know that it is late. I do not want to detain the Committee long, so I will not make a long speech. I wish to object strongly because I and some of my hon. Friends tabled amendments to clause 57 and the Table, in its wisdom, ruled that they were outside the ambit of the clause. I disputed that and was told that I could possibly have a debate if I tabled a new clause. If we do not debate clause 57 it means that the capital allowance changes go by default.
It is no good thinking that the matter can be raised in Committee, because if the clause is accepted here, as I have no doubt that it will be, it cannot be raised in Committee. The same applies to schedule 12. I wish to register my protest. I do not blame you Mr. Armstrong. Amendment No. 42 tried to simplify the matter and alleviate the impact of the change in capital allowances which will affect leasing arrangements and many manufacturing industries, television shipping and so on. As the amendment was ruled out of order, the matter cannot be raised again. There is something wrong with our system when one cannot have a second bite at the cherry.
Amendments Nos. 37 and 40, which were tabled in time, related to industrial and commercial buildings. It is of great interest to industry and commerce that these matters should be debated and should not go through on the nod.
In the past one could use capital allowances as a type of reverse roll-over relief whereby some capital allowances could be used to set off some capital charges. I do not wish to go into the merits or technicalities of that. I want to protest that these amendments were ruled out of order for one reason or another. Being the fair-minded man that you are, Mr. Armstrong, I am sure that you would agree that if some of my hon. Friends and myself tabled a new clause, which will be technically in order, we should have an opportunity to debate it. I am not trying to get a commitment out of you, Mr. Armstrong, but in the selection process with which you have quite a lot to do I hope that at Report stage we can have the opportunity of debating these clauses because it would be wrong to let go through on the nod a change in capital allowances as they affect manufacturing industry and the economy.
I am not asking that we should debate the matter tonight but that we should have an opportunity to come back to it. Upstairs in Standing Committee we cannot raise clause 57 or schedule 12. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the Committee want the opportunity to debate this on Report.
§ Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside)I support most strongly what my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark) has said. I think we all accept that some change in the capital allowances system was called for, and we accept that what has been done and will be done on corporation tax, and what has already been done on national insurance surcharge, give additional incentives for investment. Therefore, some change in capital allowances was obviously acceptable.
The Government should have a careful look at some of the reservations which have been expressed about the 298 impact of the new writing down 25 per cent. scheme on certain industries. The amendments that were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South and myself referred in part to the shipping industry. This industry is undergoing considerable commercial difficulties and asked for its current 100 per cent. depreciation rate to be increased to 140 per cent. I have reservations about that because there is already excessive tonnage in the world and that might only add to the excess.
Nevertheless, I think that between now and Report the Government ought to consider most carefully some of the representations that have been made about the shipping industry. There is a case for special consideration for such an industry. After all, half of the 107 ships which went to the Falklands campaign were merchantmen. The fleet is aging and some incentive has to be given to new build. Unless the Government are prepared to treat the industry as a special case, there is a grave danger that our share of world tonnage will decline even further.
§ Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden): I realise that due to the conventions of the House it is improper for me to argue any case for the British film industry and I declare an interest because I am an unremunerated governor of the British Film Institute. Some of us would like to use this opportunity to air our feelings about it, as well as the effect the clause will have on the merchant shipping fleet. We want an assurance from the Minister that we shall have every opportunity during the passage of this Bill to air what I believe to be reasonable grievances, although I do not want to go into every detail.
§ Mr. MooreI speak with some diffidence, Mr. Armstrong, because clearly I would not seek to go beyond the area of order. I have heard what has been said, but it would be improper for me to go further. It is in the hands of others to decide where the issue is debated. I recognise the importance of the points that have been raised. We are all aware of what is on the Amendment Paper, whether or not it can be discussed. Obviously one would look at this matter with great care.
§ Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 195, Noes 66.
300| Division No.268] | [10.54 pm |
| AYES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Crouch, David |
| Ancram, Michael | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Ashby, David | Evennett, David |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Favell, Anthony |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey |
| Baldry, Anthony | Fletcher, Alexander |
| Batiste, Spencer | Forman, Nigel |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Forth, Eric |
| Bellingham, Henry | Fox, Marcus |
| Benyon, William | Franks, Cecil |
| Berry, Sir Anthony | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Freeman, Roger |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Galley, Roy |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Grant, Sir Anthony |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Greenway, Harry |
| Butterfill, John | Gregory, Conal |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Griffiths, E. (By St Edm'ds) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsrrrth) |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Ground, Patrick |
| Colvin, Michael | Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) |
| Conway, Derek | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Hargreaves, Kenneth | Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil |
| Harris, David | Parris, Matthew |
| Hawkins, C. (High Peak) | Pawsey, James |
| Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Hawksley, Warren | Penhaligon, David |
| Hayes, J. | Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Hayward, Robert | Pollock, Alexander |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Henderson, Barry | Powley, John |
| Hirst, Michael | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Holt, Richard | Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) |
| Hooson, Tom | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Howard, Michael | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Howells, Geraint | Ryder, Richard |
| Hubbard-Miles, Peter | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Hunter, Andrew | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Jessel, Toby | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Jones, Robert (W Herts) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Sims, Roger |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Key, Robert | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Spencer, Derek |
| Kirkwood, Archibald | Squire, Robin |
| Knight, Gregory (Derby N) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Lamont, Norman | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Latham, Michael | Steen, Anthony |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Stern, Michael |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Stevens, Martin (Fulham) |
| Lester, Jim | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| Lightbown, David | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Lilley, Peter | Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire) |
| Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) | Stokes, John |
| Lord, Michael | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Sumberg, David |
| McCrindle, Robert | Tapsell, Peter |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Taylor, John (Solihull) |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Maclean, David John | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Malins, Humfrey | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Marland, Paul | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Mather, Carol | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Thurnham, Peter |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Trotter, Neville |
| Meadowcroft, Michael | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Mellor, David | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Merchant, Piers | Viggers, Peter |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Waller, Gary |
| Mills, lain (Meriden) | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Wheeler, John |
| Moate, Roger | Whitfield, John |
| Moore, John | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Wood, Timothy |
| Murphy, Christopher | Woodcock, Michael |
| Neale, Gerrard | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Needham, Richard | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Nicholls, Patrick | |
| Normanton, Tom | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Norris, Steven | Mr. David Hunt and |
| Oppenheim, Philip | Mr. John Major. |
| Ottaway, Richard | |
| NOES | |
| Anderson, Donald | Beckett, Mrs Margaret |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Bell, Stuart |
| Barron, Kevin | Benn, Tony |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Madden, Max |
| Clay, Robert | Maginnis, Ken |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | Milian, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Cohen, Harry | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) |
| Corbett, Robin | Nicholson, J. |
| Craigen, J. M. | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Park, George |
| Dalyell, Tam | Patchett, Terry |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Pike, Peter |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Dixon, Donald | Randall, Stuart |
| Dormand, Jack | Redmond, M. |
| Dubs, Alfred | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Robertson, George |
| Faulds, Andrew | Rooker, J. W. |
| Fisher, Mark | Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) |
| Flannery, Martin | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim) | Skinner, Dennis |
| George, Bruce | Soley, Clive |
| Godman, Dr Norman | Stott, Roger |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Strang, Gavin |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Walker, Cecil (Belfast N) |
| Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham) | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Welsh, Michael |
| Loyden, Edward | Wigley, Dafydd |
| McCartney, Hugh | Wilson, Gordon |
| McCusker, Harold | |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Tellers for the Noes: |
| McNamara, Kevin | Mr. Frank Haynes and |
| McWilliam, John | Mr. Allen McKay. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Clause 57 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Ernest Armstrong)Before we come to schedule 12, I should draw the Committee's attention to a printing error on page 157 of the Bill. The numbering of the subparagraphs jumps from subparagraph (4) to subparagraph (6). That will be put right when the Bill is reprinted for Report.
- Schedule 12
- INITIAL ALLOWANCES AND FIRST-YEAR ALLOWANCES 7,767 words
-
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