HC Deb 27 March 1984 vol 57 cc127-9
5. Mr. Canavan

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what subjects he discussed at his last meeting with trade union representatives of National Health Service employees; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Fowler

On the last two occasions I have met the NHS trade union representatives I have discussed the question of resources for the National Health Service.

Mr. Canavan

Will the Secretary of State confirm reports circulating at the weekend about a confidential Government document proposing a miserable 3 per cent. wage increase for our nurses and midwives and arguing that their wage levels should be determined by free market forces? Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that such an offer will provoke a very angry reaction, as it amounts to a wage reduction in real terms and the exploitation of dedicated workers in our National Health Service, no part of which should ever be governed by doctrinaire adherence to free market forces?

Mr. Fowler

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the level of pay must be determined by what the Health Service and the country can afford. The hon. Gentleman is referring to evidence that has been given to the new nurses and midwives review body, which, in due course, will make recommendations to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the level of pay for nurses. That has not yet been done. When it has been, my right hon. Friend will make a statement.

Dr. Mawhinney

Did the trade union representatives raise with my right hon. Friend the increasing number of consultants who are not fulfilling their full schedule with the NHS? Does he have that problem under review?

Mr. Fowler

They did not raise that subject with me. If my hon. Friend has such evidence, I am willing to examine and investigate it.

Mr. Flannery

Is the Secretary of State aware that a delegation of the Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staffs recently went to the Minister for Health about the pay of hospital pharmacists, who are expected to go into work at the weekend and get virtually nothing for it? Will he do something to curb the immense profits being made by drug manufacturers so that people, such as hospital pharmacists, can have higher wages?

Mr. Fowler

Such matters are all part of this year's negotiations. There is money on offer. I think that it would be sensible to wait until the negotiations have been concluded.

Mr. Yeo

Will my right hon. Friend make it clear to the trade union representatives that, although we are all anxious that there should be fair and competitive rates of pay for all National Health Service employees, any increase in their rates of pay over and above the 3 per cent. indicator can be achieved only at the expense of other resources for patient care throughout the service?

Mr. Fowler

As I said earlier, there must be consequences of that. Pay must relate to what the service can afford. That is a sensible point for anyone negotiating in the current pay round to remember.

Mr. Kennedy

When speaking to trade union representatives in the NHS, will the Secretary of State bear in mind the natural anxiety that they feel about his Department's circular on privatising or tendering contracts for ancillary services, especially as the Government's stated aim of cost-effectiveness cannot be measured in purely financial terms? Patient well-being and the working conditions of people in the Health Service must also be taken into account.

Mr. Fowler

I was not aware that the alliance has hitherto favoured competitive tendering. Money saved by competitive tendering is available for health care. That is what we are trying to pursue.

Mr. Meacher

When the Secretary of State sees representatives of the trade unions, will he explain why he always talks about economies and wage cutting when, at the same time, he is such a soft touch on the private sector? Will he also explain why he has given the British Oxygen Company a monopoly in the supply of oxygen to the NHS at a 20 per cent. profit and why he has allowed drug companies a 21 per cent. profit when the Committee of Public Accounts has said that it should be no more than 15 per cent.? Why has he given Kneels of Exeter, a private cleaning company—

Mr. Speaker

Order. It is very unusual for right hon. and hon. Members to go so wide of the mark in social services questions, but that question is very wide of the mark.

Mr. Meacher

May I say to you, Mr. Speaker—

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that it is very unfair if we do not stick to the question. This question relates to meetings with trade union representatives in the National Health Service.

Mr. Meacher

May I say, Mr. Speaker, that we are talking about wage-cutting, which affects trade unionists, while increased profits are being given to the private sector?

Will the Secretary of State explain why he has given that contract to Kneels, a private cleaning company, when the NHS in-house tender was £50,000 cheaper? Is it not clear that his real interest lies in the commercialisation of the NHS and increased profit-taking from it?

Mr. Fowler

That is a typically absurd series of questions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I shall answer. My interest is the welfare of patients in the Health Service. I am not interested in vested interests, which the hon. Gentleman persists in representing in the House. If money can be saved by competitive tendering, that money can be diverted to direct patient care. That is a sensible policy. My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health has made a long and detailed statement about the laundry service in Cornwall. That was an entirely sensible statement to make. I deeply deplore the hon. Gentleman's absurd assumption that no economies can be made in the Health Service.