HC Deb 19 March 1984 vol 56 cc691-3
8. Mr. Proctor

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning the use of his powers relating to the proposed Greater London council heavy lorry ban; and if he will make a statement.

14. Dr. Twinn

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he has had any recent communication with the Greater London council about its proposal for a night time and weekend lorry ban in Greater London.

16. Mr. Tracey

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will use his powers to prevent the Greater London council imposing a lorry ban.

19. Mr. Dykes

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what recent representations he has received from the public and interested bodies concerning the proposed night time ban on heavy lorries in Greater London.

Mr. Ridley

I have received nearly 200 representations, from a wide range of London's key businesses, responsible for food supplies, building and other basic services. In my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) on 15 March I made it clear that it would be folly for the GLC to press ahead with proposals seriously damaging to London's economy, and there would need to be the fullest public debate and a public inquiry before any such measure was decided upon.

Mr. Proctor

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in these matters a balance should be struck between environmental, economic and commercial matters, and that the majority of Londoners believe that the GLC has the balance wrong and would congratulate my right hon. Friend on using his powers to avoid the strangulation of employment in London?

Mr. Ridley

I agree that a balance has to be struck. There may be a case for many local schemes for either partial or permanent lorry bans at various hours of the day and night, but those bans need to be tested carefully. It is no good simply transferring the problem somewhere else. As my hon. Friend said, the commercial and industrial life of the capital must be preserved, or there will be nobody left to pay the rates.

Dr. Twinn

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the delays in putting an end to the threat of a blanket lorry ban in London is acting as a severe disincentive to investment in London firms and a big barrier to the creation of new jobs in London?

Mr. Ridley

My hon. Friend is right. Marks and Spencer has said that it has decided to locate its next food depot outside London, and J. Sainsbury, which employs 1,296 people in depots and stocking points in London, has said that it will be relocating outside London if there is a night time and weekend ban.

Mr. Tracey

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that information, but is he aware that various commercial concerns have said that the proceedings of the Wood inquiry were based on fallacious assumptions and that various large companies have said that this ban could lead to the loss of many tens of thousands of jobs in London?

Mr. Ridley

That is the case, but it is right to wait until we have a full evaluation of the effects of the M25 and how much lorry traffic that takes out of London when it is complete.

Mr. Spearing

Does the Minister agree that the proposal is not for a blanket ban, as his hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Dr. Twinn) suggested? Is it not a fact that the GLC has contained in its proposals facilities for exemptions for complete firms and complete trades and is saying that there should be complete exemption for quiet lorries?

Mr. Ridley

The specific proposals for exemptions either for firms or types of vehicles or for routes that may still be used have not yet been made clear or vouchsafed by the GLC. It is vital to know what they are, how to define them and how to enforce them before one can consider this problem seriously.

Mr. Pawsey

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the impact that this ban would have on the construction industry and companies associated with it such as Rugby Portland Cement? Will he comment specifically on that impact?

Mr. Ridley

It would be necessary for construction vehicles to be able to travel in London to deliver goods for construction sites. Perhaps the GLC will come up with some exemptions for them, as it will be necessary to consider that problem.

Mr. Barron

If the GLC has not formulated its plans for the ban, how can the Minister stand at the Dispatch Box and tell us how many jobs it will cost in manufacturing and food outlets in London?

Mr. Ridley

I am merely quoting what the manufacturers have said.

Mr. Prescott

Perhaps if his Back Benchers cannot do so, the Secretary of State should speak for the consumers and people who live in London who are threatened by this heavy lorry traffic through the metropolis. Is it not time that the Secretary of State considered the fact that the M25 will reduce heavy lorries in London by only 18 per cent., and that the Wood recommendations should be considered by his Department to secure an improvement for London?

Mr. Ridley

Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman has now jumped off the fence right into the pocket of the GLC? If it does, he will find that there is no great point in a capital city where industry and commerce find it impossible to operate. That is my concern, and it is a most important one.