HC Deb 16 March 1984 vol 56 cc667-74
Mr. Bright

I beg to move amendment No. 56, in page 9, line 34, leave out '£10,000' and insert `£20,000'.

With the leave of the House, I should like to take this opportunity to thank all those of my colleagues who have helped me during the past seven or eight months.

I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, with whom I have worked very closely. We were friends before I introduced the Bill. If we had not been, we certainly would have been after all this time, because we have worked together extremely well and I thank him for his help and encouragement.

I also wish to thank the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell). The Bill has given rise to a quite unique set of circumstances, especially in Committee where it had all-party support and participation, meaningful debates and very meaningful votes without the Whipping system. It has been an extremely refreshing experience.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell), who brought this matter to the attention of the House in the previous Parliament, for his help and encouragement, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin), who unfortunately is not here today, and who worked extremely hard during the Committee stage to ensure that matters were kept on course. I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Harlow (Mr. Hayes), for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Murphy) and for Richmond and Barnes (Mr. Hanley), who have been keeping me in line this morning.

The House will probably be interested to know that the public have seen this as a very important Bill and that I have had about 12,000 letters pass through my hands. In that connection I pay tribute to my secretary. I have only one secretary. She twisted my arm to get a word processor, but she has worked extremely hard and many long hours trying to answer queries from hon. Members and the many people who have written to me from outside the House.

I also pay tribute to my wife, who virtually lost me during the past nine months—although perhaps I should say "the past seven months", because we are expecting an event quite soon. I thank her for her support.

Having been granted that small licence, I turn to amendment No. 56. The Bill is designed to provide a speedy and effective means of dealing with those who evade the certification procedure. The Bill therefore makes the offences triable summarily only. Certain offences under the Bill are punishable by fines up to level 5 on the standard scale. This is the normal maximum fine for summary offences. At present level 5 stands at £1,000, but my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has announced that he intends to lay an order before the House to take effect on 1 May this year which will double the sum to £2,000. However, in view of the very large profits that unscrupulous dealers stand to make from supplying uncertified material, I believe it right that the most serious offences under the Bill should attract an exceptionally high maximum fine.

Thus offences under clauses 7 and 8 of supplying, offering to supply and possessing for the purpose of supply a video recording containing an unclassified work are subject to a fine not exceeding £10,000. This is in line with the maximum fine for the worst offence under the legislation dealing with sex shops, sex cinemas and bogus cinema clubs. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State explained in Committee, the order that my right hon. and learned Friend is to bring forward shortly will double the maximum fine under this legislation as well from £10,000 to £20,000.

The exceptional maximum fine in the Bill is designed to be in line with the exceptional maximum in other legislation. As I said, the purpose of the amendment is to increase the penalty for the offences under clauses 7 and 8 in step with the comparable increases that I have described and which my right hon. and learned Friend will be making shortly. This is very important. We discussed the question of imprisonment, but stiff fines will go a long way towards ensuring that the Bill has teeth.

2 pm

Mr. Gareth Wardell (Gower)

I thank the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) for the kind words that he uttered a few moments ago about my attempt to bring in a ten-minute Bill. When I saw the enormous amount of work that the hon. Gentleman and the Minister did in connection with the Committee, I was in a sense pleased that my attempt had failed. An enormous amount of work was also done by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell), my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) and a number of colleagues from both sides of the House.

It was a pleasure to serve on the Committee. The spirit in the Committee was always excellent and I was impressed by the way in which the Minister and the hon. Member for Luton, South bent over backwards at all times to assist the members of the Committee in their work. They were open in discussion and at all times made available to the Committee any information that would assist us. I am delighted that we have reached this stage by this point in the afternoon, and I simply wish to thank everyone concerned for their efforts in Committee.

Sir Bernard Braine

The progress of the Bill must have delighted the heart of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell), who was the pioneer in this field and a valuable member of the Committee. He and my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) have done the nation a great service by bringing this legislation to its present stage, and I have no doubt that the Bill will pass rapidly through the other House.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South has made the case for the amendment. I will not conceal from the House the fact that I regard those who traffic in the filthy trade that we are seeking here to bring under control as being almost in the same class as pushers of hard drugs. Both are totally unconcerned about the harm that they have been doing and and continuing to do to young people. I understand that they make considerable profits. I am not sure that a top fine of £20,000 will be a deterrent. We shall see. Like the certification procedure at the heart of the Bill, that aspect will need to be scrutinised as closely as possible.

I therefore welcome the fact that an annual report is to be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and that there will be a debate in which we will be able to review every aspect of the Bill against the background of public opinion and to test the efficacy of the legislation in stamping out a palpable social evil which has been condemned on all hands. At that stage we shall also be able to assess the adequacy of the provisions about any infringement of the legislation.

Although at times in the Committee I may have been a little controversial, I have thoroughly enjoyed working with my colleagues. We have all pulled together. Although the measure that we have fashioned has still to be tested and may contain imperfections, I believe that it will be greeted with a sigh of relief across the country. For that I am grateful.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

As, when the Bill becomes an Act, it will extend to Northern Ireland, I should like to thank the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright), and the House for passing it. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and I am glad that the Bill is to cover the whole of the United Kingdom. A law on this matter that governs one section of the community should apply to all sections of our community. I believe that I speak on behalf of all Northern Ireland Members when I say that the Bill will be readily welcomed in Northern Ireland. I trust that, as it comes into effect, it will help to stop some of the poison that has been peddled through these nasty videos.

Mr. Brinton

I should like to wish all god speed to the Bill now that we have got this far. We have made considerable progress today. I spoke initially to raise some queries. We have tested various matters, but I know that the basic objectives that my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) has set are right. This is the only way forward. However, there will be lurking regrets here and there about the voluntary scheme to classify such films, which could have started last September and be in operation now; that would have solved the problem earlier. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South had his luck in the ballot, and although I have a deep hatred of any increase in personal censorship—I hope that I have made that clear today — I hope that the Bill will do what it should and never embrace what it should not.

Mr. Parris

My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine) is right about the amendment. Huge profits are to be made from producing and distributing some of the material that we have been discussing. Huge profits can be made because there is huge demand for the product. I am afraid that that demand will continue and, in many cases, will continue to be satisfied in one way or another; but at least we have stopped it being satisfied in one way. As one who has not always agreed with every detail of the Bill but who has supported its main thrust, may I say how much the members of the Committee have appreciated the helpful and informative way in which my hon. Friend the Minister has conducted his responsibilities throughout Committee stage and this morning. We have also greatly appreciated the courtesy, diplomacy and transparent good faith of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright), who has made a fairly uncontroversial provision out of something that could have been extremely controversial.

We have today created another quango. We probably had to do that, as I do not think that there was any other way in which to achieve our aims. It would be churlish to conclude the debate without wishing that quango good luck in the task ahead of it.

Mr. Simon Hughes

We all came to the Bill with slightly different attitudes and it is clear that those attitudes have grown closer rather than further apart. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) for resisting at times the efforts of others to knock him off course. That takes a lot of doing and deserves acknowledgement. When the weight of a Department of State descends on an hon. Member, it takes quite a strong person to push it away. There are still matters which are a cause of concern, as there are still areas that could allow an extravagance of censorship which is not in the mind of the Minister, the hon. Member for Luton, South or those who have supported the Bill throughout. I hope that we are wary of the way in which the Bill in its present form could be used. It is our duty to deal with the two needs that the Bill sets out to reconcile. The first is preventing harm to youngsters. If the other place does not think that we have done enough, it can look at the matter again. Secondly, we must ensure at all times that we do not go too far in restricting the liberty of the individual adult citizen to make his or her decisions about the way in which they behave.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will try to avoid having another Second Reading debate.

Mr. Hughes

This is my last sentence, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I welcome the recognition that this last amendment gives to the importance of ensuring that we deal with the problem. We should deal with the problem that is the purpose of this Bill, but we should never go wider than that. I hope that all of us will be vigilant in ensuring that it goes no wider than that.

Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge)

It is appropriate that the last amendment to be debated deals with punishment, because there is no doubt that the gravity of the issues is of great concern to us all.

I was especially pleased that, as a young Member, I participated in the debates in Committee, which showed graphically how many matters unite hon. Members on both sides of the House. It is often said that at times we must be stern with each other and that we have many disagreements. However, the public can see from the way in which we approached this Committee that for most of the time hon. Members can address themselves to the issues that matter most. The basic dichotomy in any liberal society is that, on the one hand, we have to say that we abhor censorship, and, on the other hand, we must protect the young and fulfill our duties to them. I think that we got the balance right. If the public read about our deliberations in the newspapers, or if they take copies of Hansard to bed, they will see that on this occasion we could address the issues that mattered most in a way that reflects credit on the House.

Mr. Denis Howell

First, I shall comment on the amendment and then, with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall say two or three things more. The £10,000 fine was ludicrously low for the offences that we are discussing, and I am glad that the hon. Member for Luton, South agreed to meet the point that we made in Committee so that, as far as possible, we can take the profit out of the filth.

I sincerely congratulate the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) and I endorse everything that has been said about the way in which he tried to accommodate our different views. He will be the first hon. Member for a long time to leave us with an air of expectancy—on two grounds. First, we hope that he will do well in another place. Secondly, we hope that he will do well in the maternity home. I offer him and his wife good wishes in respect of the second event. I do not know whether that means that he might have twins; unless he wants them, I shall not wish them upon him. I have four times walked the corridors at midnight and heard the dawn chorus. I do not know whether this is his first opportunity——

Mr. Bright

Yes.

Mr. Howell

Then it will be a special pleasure for the hon. Gentleman, and when he is nursing his baby in the middle of the night I hope that he will watch some good, wholesome videos to help him pass the time.

I thank the Minister again. We could not have had a more co-operative, sensible and sensitive Minister than we had on this Committee. Through him, may I thank the officers of his Department, who were especially helpful to me on one or two occasions, and who I am sure were equally helpful to other hon. Members.

Hon. Members will not mind my saying that the Opposition team on this Committee was extremely helpful. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell), who is the founding father of the Bill and who expressed his satisfaction about it today, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike), whose first Committee this was. I am sure that he learnt a lot from it and he certainly contributed a great deal. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett), who is sorry not to be here at the conclusion of proceedings, made a significant contribution to our debates about the degradation and exploitation of women that is apparent in some of the worst videos. I express my appreciation to her.

This was a House of Commons occasion and a House of Commons Committee. We have collectively done a good job of work for the nation. I sit down with the thought that there is not enough private Members' time in the House to deal with matters about which the nation is concerned. Having been a Minister for nearly 12 years, I include myself in my strictures when I say that, if only Governments had more faith in Back Benchers and provided more time to facilitate matters of great social importance that the Government would not normally be able to deal with, we might have a better reputation in the country than we enjoy at the moment. Not only has the hon. Member for Luton, South got legislation through in good style, but he has added to the reputation of the House of Commons at a time when that is badly needed.

2.15 pm
Mr. Mellor

When we passed the legislation relating to sex shops it was unprecedented to increase a fine above £10,000. It was thought appropriate that the fine for breeches of the Bill should be £10,000 because of the large profits that are involved in the unlawful trade of this material. As a result of changes that the Government have recently announced, which have been widely welcomed, to ensure that fines that had not been increased since 1977 should be increased with effect from May this year, it seemed appropriate to keep in line with the legalisation on sex shops and have a maximum fine of £20,000.

This is necessary to deal with the problem, and we show the importance that we attach to enforcement of the Bill by giving the courts so much discretion. In Committee, I undertook to consider whether we should go further and have a sentence of imprisonment, but I have not been advised to recommend that to the House and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will accept that that is reasonable. I recommend the amendment to the House.

Allowing myself some of the latitude that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, quite rightly allowed to others, and as I understand that there will not be a Third Reading debate, I thank those colleagues who have made kind remarks about my contribution. I have enjoyed the Bill because both sides of the House have applied their minds to a real problem that impresses itself upon all of us. Our opinions have converged rather than diverged during the passage of this measure. That can only be a good thing.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) deserves all the plaudits that have been heaped upon him. He has achieved an astonishing feat, for in the last Division on the Bill he took with him into the Lobby the hon. Members for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist), and Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). I should like to see another Division list that showed all those hon. Members and my hon. Friend in the same Lobby. That message is worth sending out from this place because it shows how united the House of Commons is in support of this measure, and that is important because our commitment has been called into question in the press recently.

This is essentially a moderate measure brought about because we cannot accept that if there is censorship at the cinema, as there is reasonable, sensible, censorship, and if there is censorship on television, as there is through the requirements in the charters of the broadcasting authorities, we cannot have another medium dealing with moving pictures that does not have some sort of control. We could no longer tolerate videos that would never have been permitted in the cinema or on television being freely sold to pollute the minds of young people.

We have taken the opportunity to deal with that problem, in a way that is in the consumer's best interest. We have set up a system so that the consumer who goes into a video shop will know what he is acquiring. He will know whether it has a U-certificate for children, and whether it is classified 15 or 18. That is a sensible response to the enormous technological changes that the video revolution has brought about.

I am dismayed that the unanimity of view that exists in the House has not been reproduced in the media, which in recent weeks have been inclined to carp about the measure. I hope that the message that goes out from here this afternoon is that the House of Commons remains as united in support of the Bill as it was when we embarked on the process several months ago.

The Deputy Speaker

Order. I remind the House that the Bill has not yet received its Third Reading, and that other hon. Members are anxious for their Bills to be considered. I hope, therefore, that hon. Members will consider the rights of other hon. Members.

Mr. Maclennan

I welcome the Minister's movement on the amendments and I wish to associate myself with what he said about the way in which the Bill has been handled by the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright), whose Bill it is. However, the apparent unanimity of the House on the Bill does not mean that the Bill should not receive the most careful consideration in another place. A number of matters in it still trouble people outside, and I hope that that fact is borne in mind.

I thank the Minister for the assistance that he has given, and I conclude by saying that, although this measure is a worthwhile effort, I very much regret that it was not a Government Bill, because it has blocked the passage of other private Members' Bills, which have not reached Committee because of this major piece of legislation. In my view, it was not appropriate to handle the Bill in this way. Having said that, I pay nothing but the warmest tribute to the hon. Member for Luton, South.

Amendment agreed to.

Forward to