HC Deb 06 March 1984 vol 55 cc717-8
1. Mr. Jim Callaghan

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the estimated impact on the unit of resources for the universities of the Government's policies for public expenditure and student numbers for (a) 1984–85, (b) 1985–86 and (c) 1986–87 in comparison with the current academic year.

The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Sir Keith Joseph)

Compared with the current academic year the unit of resource will be about 5 per cent. higher in cash in 1984–85 and about 9 per cent. higher in 1985–86. No estimate is available for 1986–87.

Mr. Callaghan

Does the Secretary of State agree that, in general, a lower unit of resource means a higher staff-student ratio? Is he aware that Manchester university has been told that this year it will receive a grant of £43.9 million, instead of £45.07 million? Will not that lowering of the grant affect the staff-student ratio and have adverse effects on teaching and research at that esteemed university?

Sir Keith Joseph

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that while the Government and I take responsibility for the total allocation to the universities, the distribution between universities is, by 60 years' tradition, the responsibility of the University Grants Committee.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many of the changes that have recently taken place at the universities, particularly those under the aegis of the University Grants Committee, were long overdue?

Sir Keith Joseph

I hear what my hon. Friend says. I suspect that general judgments cannot be justified from this Box, but I am sure that the pressure to get good value for the taxpayers' money is on the whole healthy.

Mr. Wilson

Since the University Grants Committee is the chosen instrument of Government policy, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in a circular letter dated November 1983, the UGC made the following request: We would ask readers concerned with the different systems in Scotland and Northern Ireland to make the appropriate adjustments. That somewhat insulting reference to Scotland, though an off-the-cuff remark, appeared in a very important document. Does the right hon. Gentleman now agree that the UGC is the wrong instrument to deal with the universities, and that not only should a Scottish UGC he set up, but that responsibility for the Scottish universities should pass to the Secretary of State for Scotland?

Sir Keith Joseph

The short answer is no, Sir, but my colleagues and I are always ready to consider arguments.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Under-Secretary of State got the figures wrong in his letter to The Guardian on 11 February? The Under-Secretary should have made it clear that there was a cut in resources allocated to the universities between 1980–81 and 1983–84, and that for nearly four years there has been, as a result of Government cuts, a pattern of reduced standards in universities. When will the Minister and his colleagues stand up for the universities and demand that they be given sufficient resources to do a decent job?

Sir Keith Joseph

The answer to the first part of the question is yes, Sir. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary explained that himself in a letter to The Guardian.

I believe that the universities can do a very good job on the money that they have. There is level funding in 1984–85, and very nearly level funding in 1985–86, on the assumption of a 5 per cent. inflation rate in each of those financial years.