§ 4. Mr. Loydenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has received from Commonwealth countries concerning the recent visit of Mr. Botha to the United Kingdom.
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweA number of Commonwealth Governments made their views known to us both before and after the visit. We stressed that the visit signalled no change in policy on our part. It was recognised by many, although by no means all, as a useful opportunity to make our views plain on a number of issues of common concern to Commonwealth countries.
§ Mr. LoydenIs the Foreign Secretary aware that the visit was an insult to the majority of people in Britain and an insult to most Commonwealth countries? If the Government are serious in their attitude to apartheid, why does the right hon. Gentleman not make a categorical statement that in no circumstances will Coastguard be sold to South Africa?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweWe have received no approach to supply to South Africa aircraft of the kind described by the hon. Gentleman. Any application for an export licence will be examined on its merits. The Government will, of course, fulfil their obligations under the arms embargo.
The hon. Gentleman must be living in a different world from the great majority of hon. Members. To say that that visit could be described as an insult to British people shows a complete failure to appreciate the reality of the matter. It was right, and was widely regarded as right, that my right hon. Friend should take that opportunity of making plain to the South African Government our strongly held views on many South African questions. If it is right—as I am sure it is—for us to engage in discussion and dialogue with a range of other countries, it cannot possibly be wrong to take that opportunity to speak to the South African Government.
§ Sir Peter BlakerHas my right hon. and learned Friend yet heard any adverse comment from the Opposition on the fact that Mr. Botha was received by the Pope? Are not the Opposition guilty once more of double standards?
§ Sir Geoffrey Howerose—
§ Mr. HealeyOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerDoes the point of order relate to this matter.
§ Mr. HealeyYes, it relates directly to this question. Is it customary for His Holiness the Pope to be held responsible for his or anyone else's behaviour?
§ Mr. SpeakerEvery hon. Member must take responsibility for his questions.
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI accept responsibility for answering for the Government. In that respect I am glad to endorse what my right hon. Friend said—that the Opposition in this matter, as in so many others, are guilty of double standards.
§ Mr. Andrew F. BennettOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I shall take points of order afterwards.
§ Mr. EasthamThe Foreign Secretary stated that several Commonwealth countries referred to certain issues. Did one matter concern Mr. Nelson Mandela, who has now been imprisoned for 20 years? What is the right hon. and learned Gentleman's attitude to that issue?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweA number of Commonwealth countries have urged us to use our influence with South Africa. The meeting provided an opportunity for doing that. Mr. Nelson Mandela's case was raised during that meeting and we raised the matter in a general statement of our strongly held views on apartheid.
§ Mr. StanbrookIs not jaw-jaw better than war-war in the case of South Africa and Argentina? Is not personal contact in these matters far more valuable than megaphone diplomacy? Should not our Commonwealth friends be told that it would serve their interests far better if they spoke personally to Mr. Botha and expressed their detestation—we all share that feeling—for his internal policies rather than to engaging in the present boycotting?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweMy hon. Friend is correct. As I have said, members of the Commonwealth have urged us to use our influence in South Africa. The visit provided an opportunity to do that. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House welcome the fact that we took that opportunity.
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonDoes my right hon. and learned Friend agree that this country receives representatives of unsavoury Commonwealth Governmnents not least Mr. Mugabe, who has detained a former Prime Minister of his country for more than six months without bringing him to court? Will my right hon. and learned Friend pay tribute to the part that South Africa plays to the benefit of the whole of southern Africa by way of food production and economic aid? Will he pay tribute also to the agreements that were recently entered into with Mozambique and Angola?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweOf course we attach importance to our relationship with South Africa, but within that context we continue to hold certain constraints on that relationship. We have fully upheld our international obligations to South Africa. We recognise, as my hon. Friend points out, the value of an agreement such as the Nkomati agreement, as a step towards stabilisation and a reduction of tension in South Africa.
§ Mr. HealeyIs the Foreign Secretary aware that Mr. Botha's visit was described in The Times as a diplomatic triumph for Mr. Botha and an unmitigated disaster for the blacks in South Africa, and that that view is widely held throughout this country? If the right hon. and learned Gentleman observes the constraints on Britain's relationship with South Africa to which he referred, will he explain how it was possible for a South African officer at the naval base in Simonstown to betray British and NATO defence secrets to the Soviet Union on a scale which is said to be without precedent since the war?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI believe that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to a case the facts of which extend over many years, perhaps even to the period when he was Secretary of State for Defence. I am not prepared to answer a question on that aspect without a great deal of notice. It is foolish to describe the meeting between the two Prime Ministers as a matter of disaster or triumph, victory or defeat. Vital questions arise in southern Africa. 981 A number of Western and Commonwealth Governments have important views on those matters, which we were able to put direct to the South African Prime Minister and to discuss with him. Nothing but good can flow from that.