§ Mr. A. Cecil Walker (Belfast, North)I beg to move amendment No. 77, in page 24, line 21, leave out 'and Wales' and insert 'Wales and Northern Ireland'.
§ Mr. SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to take the following amendments: No. 78, in page 24, line 22, leave out '20, does not extend' and insert
'sections 7 and 13 extends'.No. 79, in page 24, line 23, at end add'subject to such modifications and applications as may be specified by Order in Council made under the Northern Ireland Act 1974'.
§ Mr. WalkerMy purpose in moving the amendments is expressly to show the disparity between two integral 581 parts of the United Kingdom, in that Northern Ireland is being treated as a separate entity in all matters pertaining to legislation.
With regard to housing defects, I can say with authority that Northern Ireland shares with its mother country the complex problems associated with defective housing. That fact was recognised by the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Patten), who has taken the heat out of a potentially explosive problem by declaring in general terms that action will be taken to protect the owners of such houses purchased through the public authority housing sales scheme.
However, it is regrettable that the Minister's statement was not broad enough to encompass the unfortunate owners who have purchased such dwellings in the private sector, in complete ignorance of defects that have developed or could subsequently develop. Irrespective of statements made and promises given, the people of Northern Ireland should have been included in the Bill. The same need exists to alleviate the problems. About 3,800 Orlit houses were built in the Province, and about the same number were built by a company called Fortus Construction. There are also Housing Executive cross-wall dwellings, and what are known as Ulster cottages. They all require urgent examination under the terms of the Bill.
We have been fed platitudes to the effect that there is no immediate danger to the residents of those houses. That might be true, but in view of the limited number of tests carried out, it is difficult to accept that statement completely. A spokesman for the Housing Executive said that until the tests are completed and fully evaluated, it will be impossible to establish a definitive policy for those dwellings. In view of that, I plead that Northern Ireland is included in this legislation urgently, and I hope that I have the sympathy and support of the House for my amendment.
§ Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)It may not come entirely as a surprise to you, Mr. Speaker, that I support the amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Walker). I also think it possible that the topic is one with which the Minister for Housing and Construction is not entirely unfamiliar.
In Northern Ireland there is no elective housing authority. The housing authority for the whole of the Province is a huge quango. If the legislation were concerned with the functions of housing authorities in England and Wales or in Scotland one would understand the logic of separate legislation for the different parts of the United Kingdom. But the Bill is concerned with the potential misfortune of private individuals who have purchased defective housing from public authorities. In that respect there is no difference between the different parts of the United Kingdom because, as my hon. Friend has said, there are numerous house owners in Northern Ireland who, like their opposite numbers in Great Britain, have purchased in all ignorance and good faith houses which were sold to them in ignorance and good faith—though defective—by local authorities. The same relief ought to be available to those in all parts of the kingdom and it should be available simultaneously and under the same legislation.
582 In the course of the debate we have had in diligent attendance upon the House representatives of the Scottish Office and of the Welsh Office. There is no technical reason why the Bill should not have extended to Northern Ireland and why, similarly, we should not have had the attendance of a Northern Ireland Minister.
Two clauses–7 and 13—have been sufficient to apply the provisions for England and Wales to Scotland. A little more complexity might have been involved in applying the same provisions to Northern Ireland, but in an amendment which is being considered with that moved by my hon. Friend the proposition is made that that application could be carried out by Order in Council.
The Government will be aware that from 1977 onwards there has been a procedure whereby, in cases applying identically or to the same effect, Great Britain legislation, an Order in Council subject to negative resolution procedure and not, therefore, normally requiring any of the time of the House, would be appropriate. There is, therefore, no difficulty in legislation of this type being framed so as to apply to Northern Ireland, and the application technicalities would not be of inconvenience or trouble to the Administration or to the House.
There is only one assurance that can be given to citizens of this country that they will all be treated alike and that relief will come to them at the same time and under the same conditions, and that is, that the relief should be extended in the same legislation. It is that which my right hon. and hon. Friends are seeking in the terms of the amendment.
I do not think our case can in common sense and justice be resisted. I would have thought that it was a case that would command the sympathy of the Minister who is in charge of the Bill. Perhaps it might be useful, however, if I say that a case which has long been urged, and on so many occasions as this one, very often has to be brought gradually into acceptance. The old proverb about the constant dripping that wears away a stone is nowhere more applicable than to a demand for self-evident justice, for that which has to be constantly repeated until, by dint of repetition or by dint of fatigue of Government, its self-evidence dawns also upon those who can bring relief. I do not know whether that moment will have arrived tonight in the context of this Bill. There could be no Bill more suitable for it to be announced. I almost wonder whether there is any Minister by whom it might be more suitable to be promolgated. Hon. Members on this Bench remain not only hopeful, but confident that sooner or later this House will see the justice, convenience, and the common sense of legislating wherever possible—this is a possible case—simultaneously for all parts of the Kingdom. The day will come—I hope that it will come on midsummer day 1984.
§ Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster)I join the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Walker) and the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) in an earnest desire to see this legislation cover Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. There is no reason why the appropriate legislation should not have been for Northern Ireland as well as for England, Scotland and Wales. I have listened attentively to all this debate, and the problems that the people in England, Scotland and Wales are suffering are the same as those that the people of Northern Ireland are suffering. Therefore, it would be most appropriate, and this would have been the right legislation, to have included 583 Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, I do not believe that the House will heed that cry. I would be delighted to hear the Minister prove me wrong, and I shall wait with interest for his reply.
On the Bill generally, I sympathise with many of the comments that have been made by Opposition Members. The Bill covers a particular group of people, but does not cover the vast number of people who also have problems that need to be attended to. I am delighted that it assists those who have purchased their dwellings, but it should attend to the problems of the large number of people who are in public housing that needs proper attention, and the interest of the House.
In Northern Ireland I appreciate that we have but one housing authority. That authority has been treated favourably, with finance to tackle many problems. While the House can sympathise with local authorities in their plight of having many houses with defects, the sympathy of the House will not change the problem—but the appropriate finance to fund programmes to solve those problems must be forthcoming. I trust that the Government will look favourably on that.
I join with hon. Members who have spoken, and I trust that there will be an urgent movement in the House, so that those houses that have defects will be properly attended to by the appropriate legislation, not only for England, Scotland and Wales, but for—dare I say it—the best part of the family, beloved Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. GowI understand the reasons which prompted the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Walker), a member of the Committee, to table the amendment which stands in his name. I understand too the reasons which prompted the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) and the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea) to speak in support of it.
The House may know that on the day following the announcement which I made in the House of a scheme to help the owners of defective houses which had originated in the public sector, my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Patten), the Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland, made a statement announcing that there would he a scheme applicable to Northern Ireland which was similar to the scheme which I had announced on the previous day.
The right hon. Member for Down, South asked for two things. He asked for parity of treatment and time. Any differences between the scheme which will be applicable to Northern Ireland and the scheme which will be applicable to Great Britain will be so minor as will make the scheme virtually indistinguishable for practical purposes. I cannot say this evening on what date either the Bill now before the House or legislation specifically applying to Northern Ireland will have effect. But I do say that—the right hon. Gentleman had a fair point here—it is likely that the timing of the legislation applying to the Province will be later than the timing of the legislation applying to Great Britain.
The hon. Member for Belfast, North asked—I hope that I did not misunderstand him—whether we could extend the Bill to properties which had never been in the public sector to properties which had always been in the private sector. We have made a distinction throughout discussion on the Bill between the responsibility of the Government in respect of properties which originated in 584 the public sector and the responsibility of the Government towards properties which have never been in the public sector. It would be a significant step for the Government to give a guarantee in respect of property which had never been in the public sector.
The right hon. Member for Down, South commented on the fact that there was no Minister for Northern Ireland on the Treasury Bench.
§ Mr. J. Enoch PowellI was regretting that since the Bill did not cover Northern Ireland there was therefore not a representative of the Northern Ireland office on the Front Bench. It was not uttered in criticism, rebus extantibus.
§ Mr. GowI thank the right hon. Gentleman for that.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he wanted the legislation to extend to Northern Ireland. He said that there must be parity of treatment. I remind the House that we have frequently had separate legislation on housing matters for England and Wales on the one hand and Scotland on the other. Indeed, in the Tenants Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Act 1980, which sets out the right to buy in Scotland, there are quite significant differences between the right to buy for those who live in Scotland and the right to buy for those who live in England and Wales.
I say that only to give a partial reassurance to the right hon. Gentleman that we do not always treat in housing matters in a way which is identical those who live in Scotland and those who live in England and Wales.
I cannot advise the House to agree to the amendment which has been tabled by the hon. Member for Belfast, North. It was made clear by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the statement which he made on 11 November that there would be separate legislation for Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. James Molyneaux (Lagan Valley)The Minister has properly drawn attention to the statement of the Under-Secretary of State. The Minister will recall that he and I exchanged letters the very week that he made the original statement in the House in November. Can he think of any good reason why there should be a much greater delay, bearing in mind that the mechanism was put into effect in the same week in Northern Ireland and in the House?
§ Mr. GowI shall certainly draw the pertinent comments of the right hon. Gentleman to the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Patten), the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, and to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
§ 11 pm
§ Mr. John FraserThe Minister says that the Bill will be applied almost word for word to Northern Ireland by order. Under the Bill as it applies to England, Wales and Scotland, the local authority will receive only 90 per cent. reimbursement of reinstatement grant, and 75 per cent. reimbursement of the cost of repaying a mortgage on the defective value of the dwelling if it repurchases. In Northern Ireland, where housing is run by an executive, will this be dealt with on the same basis? In Northern Ireland, will the Government be bearing 100 per cent. of the cost of reinstatement or repurchase, whereas in England the Government will be bearing only 90 per cent. in one case and 75 per cent. in the other case of the cost of reinstatement or repurchase?
§ Mr. GowThe hon. Gentleman will have to await the publication of the draft order in council before we are able to answer that question.
§ Mr. J. Enoch PowellMay I reassure the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) that the method of calculating and imposing the rate in Northern Ireland will ensure that the ratepayers in Northern Ireland bear exactly the same share as those in the rest of the United Kingdom? At least, if they do not, it is the fault of the calculating mechanism, and not the intention of the legislation.
§ Mr. John FraserI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation, and for his support of the breach of the principle of caveat emptor.
§ Amendment negatived.