§ Sir Hector MonroI beg to move amendment No. 136, in clause 63, page 41, line 6, leave out subsection (2).
I was astonished when I read clause 63. It is an example of the "nanny" society at its worst. We are restricting the use of horse-drawn vehicles on the road and it seems that we do not even trust nanny. As the clause stands, an adult will be forbidden from taking a 14 or 15-year-old out and teaching him to drive a pony and trap or a horse and cart. The clause does not provide an exemption for those who are under supervision. It merely provides that no one under the age of 16 can drive a horse and cart or pony and trap. This is incredibly restrictive, especially during a period in the century when we are encouraging, as much as we can, riding and interest in horses generally. If we are to stop the use of horses and traps by youngsters, the next stage will be to stop riding on the roads. This is the thin end of the wedge and should be resisted.
I have no doubt that the Minister will say that 14 years is the present age requirement, but why should it be placed at 16 without any firm evidence that the change will have a dramatic effect? Has my hon Friend had discussions with the National Farmers Union of Scotland on the agricultural use of horses and carts? My hon. Friend has great experience of the countryside and I am sure that, like me, he frequently brought in hay with a horse and bogey, taking it along farm roads and public roads at an age far less than 16. Why should that practice be banned?
Has my hon. Friend considered the repercussions on the agriculture industry? Not many horses are being used nowadays, but there is quite a strong feeling within the industry that horses can do certain work more economically than tractors now that the cost of diesel and the initial cost of a tractor is so high.
There is no justification for this measure. Can my hon. Friend tell me how many drivers aged between 14 and 16 have had accidents in the past year or the last year for which we have statistics? Is there any justification for changing the present law and being more restrictive without producing evidence of youngsters having accidents morning, noon and night because they are driving horses and traps or horses and carts on public roads? This is such a simple amendment that I have no need to speak at greater length. I shall be interested to hear my hon. Friend's reply.
§ Mr. Bill WalkerI support the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro). In recent years in my constituency there has been a substantial growth in the use of ponies and traps. I find this encouraging, because it means that many youngsters have been given the opportunity to indulge in the practice. An age limit of 16 would be rather inhibiting as the children at the local secondary school, many of whom drive ponies and traps, would in future be breaking the law as I understand it. I find it surprising that the age limit has been changed without a real attempt to ascertain the true scene in the countryside. If this is the thin edge of the wedge, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries suggests, the next step will be that children on ponies will not be allowed to ride on the roads until they are 16-year-olds. 398 My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary would be surprised at the reaction that there would be in Perthshire to such a measure.
§ Mr. DewarI rise to safeguard the agriculture interests of Garscadden, although it may be only rarely that a pony and trap is seen there.
Clause 63(3) defines a drawn vehicle as one that is
pulled by one or more draught animals.I suppose that a draught animal is any animal pulling a cart or other contrivance. Is a pony pulling a trap to be classed as a draught animal? Clause 63 deals largely with loads and with the securing of loads, and is presumably concerned with things more formidable than a small pony pulling a trap along a road.I have some sympathy with the remarks of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), if the term "draught animals" is to be widely interpreted. I am not a horsey person, but endless pictures of animals jumping over fences at the Horse of the Year show have made me familiar with the categories. When I think of a draught animal, I think of a Clydesdale, a Shire or some other substantial animal, bred for the purposes of haulage.
§ Mr. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon)Beasts.
§ Mr. DewarYes, beasts. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce). I think of him as an example of suburban man, but his constituency has given him an agricultural veneer.
What is to be encompassed in the clause? There is to a criminal offence. Is there to be a strict liability? The owner:
commits an offence if he permits".but presumably an action of commission rather than of omission is required. If my 15-year-old son takes out my pony and trap for a whirl without my permission, shall I be done on the grounds that I permitted the offence by failing to take proper precautions to ensure that he did not do so?In his days at the Bar, the Minister must have fought many a hard case on such points. Can he say a word or two on these subtleties before we pass on?
Secondly — I am very out of date these days—the offence is punishable by a level two fine. What is a level two fine?
§ Mr. AncramThe hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) has surprised us all. He has shattered our picture of him as a horsey person. Apparently he relies on television for his equine information.
I have not practised at the Bar for as long as the hon. Gentleman has been away from his solicitor's practice, but I understood that the word "permission" required an act of commission rather than omission. If I am wrong, I shall write to the hon. Gentleman on that point.
The hon. Gentleman's definition of a draught animal is correct. A draught animal is any animal which is capable of pulling a cart or a vehicle. Clearly, the most likely example, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir. H. Monro) said, is the horse and cart or pony and trap. I understand my hon. Friend's concern, and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker). However, if I were to accept the amendment, the effect would be that a child would be able to drive on the road at any age with impunity. That cannot be what my hon. Friend has in mind.
§ Sir Hector MonroIt would be better than what is in the Bill.
§ Mr. AncramI am sure my hon. Friend agrees that very young people being permitted to drive traps on the road could be hazardous. I appreciate my hon. Friend's point about the practice being mainly something of the past. I listened to earlier parts of the debate, and I am sure that we all agree that the amount of traffic and its speed have increased. A young person might not be in complete control or, indeed, in control at all, of a pony and trap or horse and cart. It is my experience of the countryside that the elderly sometimes find themselves in difficulties while following that pursuit.
I believe that there would be a hazard and that the activity should be restricted to people over the age of 16, as is the case with motor cycles. A child below the age of 16 might be capable of riding a motor cycle, but the age limit still applies in regard to the smallest moped.
§ Mr. Bill WalkerPerhaps I should have declared an interest in that I have a 13-year-old daughter who regularly rides her pony on the roads and more than once has driven a horse and trap. The popularity of the activity is increasing and I encourage it as it is much preferable to some of the ghastly pastimes one reads about. If my hon. Friend leaves in the 16-year-old provision, children at the local high school, who are busily engaged in this activity under instruction, will find that their instructors are breaking the law.
§ Mr. AncramAt present, the law lays down a limit of 14 years of age. Anyone who drives a horse and cart under that age is committing an offence. I appreciate the point being advanced by my hon. Friends, but there are other areas where the hobby can be indulged in. Clause 63 does not apply to tracks on farms and other land over which there is no public right of passage. Young people will be able to learn to drive a horse and cart in those areas. The age limit was raised as a result of a recommendation by a civic government working party. We accept the recommendation on the basis that roads are now more dangerous with more and faster traffic than when driving horses and carts was normal practice. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries mentioned their use on farms. I understand that there are still times when they might be used. Their substitution for tractors was what I understood to be his economic argument, but the drivers of tractors have to be much older than 16.
The National Farmers Union has made many comments on the Bill and raised many points. This was not an issue on which it commented. In view of its other comments, perhaps we can assume that it was not offended by this provision. In those circumstances, I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw his amendment. As roads get busier, it is important to ensure that road users are of an age at which they are more likely to be in control of their vehicle. That is in the interests of road safety. On that basis, I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the amendment.
§ Sir Hector MonroSubsection (2) says:
The owner of a drawn vehicle commits an offence if he permits a child of under 16 years of age to drive that vehicle on a road.Is a child allowed to lead a horse and trap? What is the difference? If the child is 2ft off the ground he is prosecuted, but if he walks along holding the horse by its halter or head collar, that is all right. Is the child then in charge, or must he be driving the horse and trap?400 The Minister did not say whether any accidents had occurred to children between the ages of 14 and 16, and he did not produce a satisfactory answer to my remarks about driving under supervision. Did he really mean to say that a parent in a horse and trap with a child under 16 cannot allow that child to take the reins for perhaps live minutes or 100 yd because that would be breaking the law? It must be possible to draft the provision so that this can occur with the supervision of an adult.
My hon. Friend said that people could take ponies and traps out into the fields, but many children who live in urban areas are interested in horses. They might want to go into some quiet back street with their parents and learn to drive. We have seen on television the high standards of driving that are achieved by children and adults.
The subsection is totally unnecessary and could be removed from the Bill without any harm being done. I trust that between now and Report my hon. Friend will reconsider the matter, will do something about the question of supervision and will table an amendment to make the age 14. He should also clarify the provision so that people can be sure whether the pony and trap is under the control of the child when driven and not led.
§ Mr. DewarI have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) on the question of supervision. However, I appreciate the general point that the Minister made, but there may be a case for looking, before Tuesday — appreciating that we have a tight schedule—at the possibility of some provision to cover the situation of a child being at the helm, if that is not the wrong word, with adult supervision.
The hon. Member for Dumfries made a fair point when he asked whether the provision would apply to a child who was leading a pony and trap, as distinct from riding in the trap. If one can escape prosecution by leading, that is a variation on a well-known political slogan, which might go something like, "Two feet good, four feet bad."
§ Mr. Home RobertsonI think that my hon. Friend means, "Four feet good, six feet bad".
§ Mr. DewarPerhaps, and on another occasion we can argue this nice point of theology.
Will the Minister remind me — I asked him this question earlier— what is the present scale of level. 2 fines? If we have that sum, the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) will know what horrors will afflict him if he encourages his 13-year-old daughter in her mad gallop towards the Horse of the Year show.
§ Mr. AncramIf the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) refers to the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Bill, he will see the values of the penalty levels, as from 1 May 1984, set out on page V. In level 2 the fine is £100, and I apologise for not having given that information earlier.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), asked about leading. The offence as set out is of driving, and I do not want to get into what could be a complicated argument with him as to whether it is easier to control a horse when one is leading it rather than when one is driving it from a cart.
I have listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said. I cannot undertake to reconsider reducing the age limit again, to 14, but my hon. Friend has a point about supervision or driving under supervision which I shall wish 401 to consider further. If he will withdraw the amendment, I shall consider the issue between now and Report and hope to find something which will allow us to cover what I think is a valid point in that respect.
§ Sir Hector MonroWith that assurance, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall be glad to withdraw the amendment. I hope that we shall see an amendment tabled next week.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 63 ordered to stand part of the Bill.