HC Deb 20 June 1984 vol 62 cc274-6
3. Sir Hector Monro

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what additional funding has been made available to the National Health Service in Scotland, in real terms, since 1979.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. George Younger

) Gross expenditure on the NHS in Scotland has risen from £883 million in 1978–79 to an estimated £1,760 million in 1983–84—almost double in cash terms. That has allowed for real growth of about 7 per cent. in the funding of the Health Service.

Sir Hector Monro

Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is excellent news and refutes the irresponsible statements by Socialist Members of Parliament and trade unionists about cuts in the Health Service? Will he confirm that there are approximately 6,300 more nurses than there were in 1979, and 400 more doctors and 175 more dentists than when the Labour Government were in power?

Mr. Younger

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The facts and figures make the so-called "cuts campaign" about the Health Service look ridiculous. I agree that the figures for the increase in the number of doctors and dentists merely add more information to this obvious case.

Mr. Willie W. Hamilton

As the increased pay award for the nurses a week or two ago will mean that they are worse off now in real terms than they were in 1974, and as the Government assumed an increase in salaries of 3 per cent., does that not mean that in the event of nurses getting an increase of 6 or 7 per cent., there will be a worse service for the patients?

Mr. Younger

With his long-term interest in nurses, the hon. Gentleman should be more aware than anyone that it is this Government who have given the nurses a pay review body.

Mr. Hamilton

No.

Mr. Younger

It is this Government who have accepted in full that body's first recommendations. The Government have dug into the contingency fund to pay 80 per cent. of the cost from their own resources. I should have thought that any Opposition Member would welcome that.

Mrs. McCurley

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the enviable position of Scotland in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom, in terms of a better ratio of doctors and nurses to patients, is being maintained under the Government?

Mr. Younger

Yes, that is so. It is a proper reflection of the fact that Scotland has greater health problems than the rest of the United Kingdom. Therefore, the United Kingdom Government allocate extra funds to deal with that.

Mr. Canavan

How much additional funding and other resources would have been available to National Health Service patients if consultants at places such as Edinburgh royal infirmary had not been allowed to break the law by admitting private patients over the legally authorised limit? Will the Secretary of State order an inquiry into that corrupt practice, to stop those highly paid consultants lining their pockets from the NHS?

Mr. Younger

As I hope the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, such allegations could be the subject of prosecution or legal action, and as the matter could come to me in an appellate capacity, I think that I should make no comment, except that it is for the Lothian health board to investigate any such allegations, which I am sure it will do.

Mr. Michael Forsyth

Does my right hon. Friend share the concern, which is widespread in Scotland, that additional resources for patient care are not available because the health boards are dragging their feet in complying with the circular and inviting tenders for the provision of ancillary services?

Mr. Younger

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is mystifying why some people in the Health Service are reluctant to face the possibility of getting excellent services in the Health Service for less money. In these matters, less money can mean more money to spend on patients. My hon. Friend is right on that point.

Mr. George Robertson

Does the Secretary of State recognise that the people of Scotland are not persuaded by the continual juggling of figures by Conservative Members and that the real crisis in the Health Service should be measured by the serious squeeze on services that people are experiencing and the lengthening dole queues of doctors and nurses? When will the Secretary of State recognise that, if needs increase, resources must increase too, and that without those resources there is a real crisis in the Scottish Health Service?

Mr. Younger

I realise that it is most distressing to the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends that what they thought would be an extremely effective political campaign has fallen flat on its face because the facts do not support it. If the hon. Gentleman is interested in trends in the care of patients, he might like to know that waiting lists fell by 8,000 between March and September in 1983 and that there was an increase of nearly 30 per cent. in patients treated on a day basis in hospitals between 1978 and 1981. If that is not good progress, I should like to hear what is.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does the Secretary of State agree that, if cuts have taken place in the Health Service, they have been the direct result of such action by local councils as the 207 per cent. rates increase that Dundee district imposed, which resulted in millions of pounds being filched from the Health Service in Tayside region and spent by the council in Dundee?

Mr. Younger

I agree with my hon. Friend about the general position and with what he said about Dundee. The basic point, which the public have taken on board, is that, as the Government are spending more in real terms on the Health Service, it is extraordinarily difficult to imagine that as a cut in services.

Mr. Tom Clarke

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Monklands-Cumbernauld district has the highest incidence of heart disease not only in the United Kingdom but in the world? Will he make special allowances for that?

Mr. Younger

I thank the hon. Gentleman for drawing that to my attention. Heart disease causes great concern. If his area is especially bad, I shall certainly look into it.

Mr. Malone

Is the Secretary of State aware that the recent nurses' pay settlement has been widely welcomed in Scotland and in the Grampian region, where it is seen as an effective response to the representations of that profession?

Mr. Younger

It is entertaining to recall that the Labour Opposition spent weeks maintaining that the Government would not implement this pay review report. The Government have done so and the nurses appreciate it.

Mr. O'Neill

Is the Secretary of State aware that in 1979 the Prime Minister said that the nursing profession, together with the armed forces and police, would be given special status? Is he aware that, over the period, the shortfall in the living standards of nurses in fact was 19 per cent.? The pay of a first-year nurse would normally be equivalent to a first-year policeman's salary. Is he aware that the weekly salary of a first-year ward sister is £23 behind that of a first-year policeman? Is he further aware that it is an affront to the service and a breach of promise to tell the House that 20 per cent. of the last wage settlement will be funded from existing services at the expense of patients and health services?

Mr. Younger

It is extremely difficult to make valid comparisons between different professions.

Mr. O'Neill

The Prime Minister did it.

Mr. Younger

The hon. Gentleman cannot escape the fact that the independent review body recommended these rates of pay and that the Government implemented them in full, and paid for them largely from their own resources. Even the Opposition Front Bench would find it difficult to oppose that.