§
Lords amendment: No 36, in page 18, line 5, leave out
at which business of a political party is transacted
and insert
the main purpose of which is the transaction of business in connection with a political party
§ 1 am
§ Mr. Alan ClarkI beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to take Lords amendment No. 37, amendment (a), and consequential amendment No. (1).
§ Mr. EvansMy hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair), whom I congratulate on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box, said that part III was the major part of the Bill. He is correct: Clause 15 is the centrepiece of the Governments legislation. I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-underLyne (Mr. Golding) said about what is involved.
The arguments involved in Lords amendment No 36 were dismissed by Ministers. It is meant to be helpful, but it is vague and could be troublesome. The problem is caused by the words in front of the proposed new words which state:
on the holding of any conference or meeting by or on behalf of a political party".The words could cause problems.For instance, I raised the case of a delegation of workers from the steel industry, miners, agricultural workers or, in the case that I presented at some length in Committee, sugar workers, who attend a party conference to lobby delegates, or even Ministers. It is obvious that the business 953 in which they are participating is in connection with a political party. It would have been better to use a phrase such as "on behalf of a political party", to clear up the doubt. I should be grateful if the Minister will clear up this point.
There is another, similar, point. For instance, there may be meetings of public sector union workers, such as the General, Municipal, Boilermakers and Allied Trade Union, with which the Under-Secretary had one or two problems in Committee, or the National Union of Public Employees, or the National and Local Government Officers Association, or anybody else who works in the public sector, to discuss the abolition of the county councils or the Government's rate capping legislation, or any such subject that is of major concern to them Undoubtedly the words:
in connection with a political partycould be construed as the purpose of that meeting. Would the expenditure of that meeting be held to be of a political nature and therefore have to come out of a union's fund? At present, whenever a union holds or organises a meeting the purpose of which is to protect the jobs of workers in that sector, or to look to their pay and conditions, it comes from the general fund.I ask this because of the rather loose wording of this part of the Bill. Would not the union be charged from its political fund in this case? The problem with the case that I have outlined is that some of the unions in the public sector do not have political funds. If they do not have such funds, presumably they could not hold the meetings, and therefore would be denied the right to protect or promote the interests of their members.
I assume that Lords amendment No. 37 seeks to be helpful. As the Minister is aware, in committee we pressed the strongest part of our argument on this part of the Bill. As clause 15(f) was originally worded, it was of a nature that would have caused a gold mine for solicitors and barristers arguing the case as to what this subsection meant. Now, some important words have been removed. I shall read them because they are important. They say:
which, taken as a whole (any one forming part of a collection or series being considered on its own) seeks to persuade any person to vote or, as the case may be".There were many hours of debate on this point about the "collection or series", which could take place over a 12-month period. The last one of these could be held to be of a political nature, and therefore, everything that had gone before that would be caught by the Bill and would have to be charged to the union's political funds.The Government have removed those words, and we welcome that, but the clause is still vague, because what has been substituted are the words:
the main purpose of which is to persuade people to vote for a political party or candidate".It goes on to add the remaining words in clause 15(f):or … not to vote for a political party or candidate.A great deal of vagueness remains, and there is the probability of troubles in the future, in the interpretation of the phrase:not to vote for a political party or candidate".We all know the meaning of the terms, which anybody could put forward in an election campaign, "Don't vote Labour" or "Keep the Socialist out".They are quite clear, and we understand them. But what about slogans such as "Vote No to Nationalisation", or "Hands off the Building Industry"? Such slogans have 954 been used in general election campaigns but not by trade unions. Opponents of the Labour party have spent vast sums on such campaigns.
We had a long debate on the campaign of the National and Local Government Officers Association, "Put People First". The Government were determined to frame the legislation to ensure that such campaigns were caught by it. The Minister shakes his head, but in Committee he admitted that the NALGO campaign would be caught by it.
§ Mr. David Lightbown (Staffordshire, South-East)So it should be.
§ Mr. EvansThat is not the point. I want to know whether a NALGO-type campaign would be caught by the new terms of the Bill. It is essential that trade unions should be informed at this thirteenth hour of what is in the Bill. It is not good enough to leave the issue to litigation, so that people have to go to court to ascertain what is meant. I put it as strongly as possible that the NALGO campaign was a perfectly legitimate and proper campaign for a trade union to carry out in seeking to defend its members, their jobs, conditions of employment and quality of life.
If NALGO had been caught by this Bill in 1983, it would have been unable to mount its campaign, because it does not have a political fund. One of the largest trade unions in the country would have been unable to defend its members. If that is the purpose of this legislation, the Government should say so tonight. The trade unions in that category can then take the necessary steps to defend their members. I hope that the Minister will answer that point, and say definitely whether a NALGO-type campaign will be caught by the Bill.
It is an absolute disgrace that multi-national oil companies and foreign organisations will be able to spend as much money as they want attacking the Labour party and its plans and proposals without anyone intervening while restraints are being placed on trade unions that seek only to defend their members against attacks by the Government. The Under-Secretary will recall the massive Campaign Against Building Industry Nationalisation which must have cost several million pounds, and which was run during a recent general election by firms in the building industry. All of that money was legitimate and could not even be charged to the Tory party, yet the campaign was aimed directly at the Labour party. Such campaigns will not be affected. The Government have not taken any steps towards introducing some equity into the situation. It is the naked class politics that have been referred to so often during the Bill's passage —[Interruption.] Even Ministers are not very loud in their condemnation, because they know that that is true. The Bill involves naked class politics.
It would seem that any trade union that in any way criticises any aspect of Government policy—whether it is privatisation, rate-capping, public expenditure cuts, the abolition of local authorities—
§ Mr. Nicholas Soames (Crawley)Cruise.
§ Mr. EvansI was not referring to cruise. The Government are doing great damage to the public sector and are removing many jobs. Apparently whenever criticism is offered of this Government or their policies, that is regarded by the Government as political., so it 955 should be charged to the political fund. That is the one-sided approach of the Government: if any approach is unacceptable it should be denigrated and ended by whatever means possible.
1.15 am
Amendment (a) is even-handed and clears the position easily. It makes the terms of clause 15 crystal clear. There would be no need for further argument, and all unions would know exactly where they stand with regard to expenditure from their political funds. It would remove the negative expression of not to vote, whatever that means; I suspect that it will be argued many times in court what the term, "not to vote for a candidate or a political party", means. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State, even at this late hour, will give the amendment a fair hearing and will recognise the fairness of the proposition that I am putting to the Government, which would remove the present doubt with a positive statement, which would read that it would be action taken on the publication or distribution of any literature, documents or films, sound recording or advertisement, the main purpose of which is to persuade people to vote for a political party or candidate. That is very easily understood, and there would be no recourse to litigation. It is the duty of the House to attempt at all times to make its legislation clear.
The purpose of the political fund would be to persuade people to vote for a political party or candidate. Of course, that would be the Labour party. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State can reply to the debate and answer the important questions that I have asked and then inform the House that he is quite happy to accept my amendment and the consequential amendment that would be necessary to make sense of the Bill.
§ Mr. Alan ClarkBoth these amendments were moved in response to Opposition concerns expressed in Committee. I am a little surprised that the hon. Member for St. Helens, North (Mr. Evans) still displays such ingratitude. Amendment No. 36 deals with what appears to be a perfectly reasonable point: that meetings for purposes primarily to deal with union business, but where party political matters make up a minor part of the agenda, should not be caught. My noble Friend the Earl Gowrie agreed that it would be unreasonable for such meetings to be financed out of political funds. This amendment makes it clear that only meetings which are held primarily to transact party political business need be paid for from political funds.
The hon. Member for St. Helens, North raised the question of lobbyists. The answer is that their expenses can be paid out of the general fund. Unless the meeting that they attend is primarily to transact party political business and unless they take part in the meeting itself, they can be paid for out of general funds. The hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) has had his turn at the Dispatch Box. It was singularly tasteless, out of key and a great disappointment of those of us who thought that he had made a number of constructive contributions in Committee that he should have felt the obligation to refer five times in 15 minutes to class hatred. That obligation is a matter that only he can decide. Perhaps on the second occasion at the Dispatch Box, he will make a more rational and reasoned contribution.
956 By the sub-amendment and the consequential amendment, the Opposition continue to say — and the hon. Member for St. Helens, North has been perfectly frank about this—that communications which encourage people not to vote for a political party should not have to be financed from political funds. As do all his hon. Friends, he continues to harp on the celebrated NALGO campaign, and to assert the canard that the entire NALGO campaign was unlawful, and it could not be financed out of a general fund. The answer to that, which he has been given in the past on many occasions, is that the campaign as such was perfectly lawful, and it could be paid for out of the general fund. Certain advertisements in it were in contravention even of the 1913 provisions, and would have to be paid for out of the political fund now.
The intention of NALGO in this instance is relevant. It sent me a report that it commissioned on this campaign. First, it made a statement, in discussing the campaign, for the effect that its
sole purpose was to influence public opinion, and that a general election was an ideal time to do that. … the advertising was re-programmed to be completed before election day.That raises a clear presumption that the intention was to influence how people voted. As to the effect of the campaign, it said:What was unmeasurable … was whether NALGO's contribution to the political debate at that time had some influence in spite of the big shift in the public's apparent concern about the quality of the public services. In other words, without NALGO's contribution the political swing might have been even bigger.In the light of such comments, it is not possible that there could be any further question about the main purpose of these advertisements. However, a campaign that is generally devoted to a general alteration of conditions and issues can be paid for out of the general fund. There is a clear distinction between the component parts of the NALGO campaign — in particular, the advertisements with which the House is familiar, with the facsimile ballot paper in the corner, and so on—and the general theme of the campaign which would be paid for out of the general fund.I emphasise that it is no more than common sense that communications which encourage people not to vote for a political party are no less party political than those which encourage people to vote for a political party. I ask the House to reject the amendment to the Lords amendment.
§ Lords amendment agreed to.
§
Lords amendment: No. 37, in page 18, line 9, leave out from "advertisement" to "not" in line 12 and insert
the main purpose of which is to persuade people to vote for a political party or candidate or to persuade them"—[Mr. Alan Clark.]
§ Read a Second time.
§ Amendment (a) proposed, in line 3, leave out 'or to persuade them'.—[Mr. Evans.]
§ Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 137, Noes 300.
960| Division No. 431] | [1.25 am |
| AYES | |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Bermingham, Gerald |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Blair, Anthony |
| Barron, Kevin | Boothroyd, Miss Betty |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Boyes, Roland |
| Bell, Stuart | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
| Benn, Tony | Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Litherland, Robert |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Caborn, Richard | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Loyden, Edward |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | McCartney, Hugh |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Clarke, Thomas | McKelvey, William |
| Clay, Robert | Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | McNamara, Kevin |
| Cohen, Harry | McTaggart, Robert |
| Coleman, Donald | Madden, Max |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Marek, Dr John |
| Conlan, Bernard | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Corbett, Robin | Meacher, Michael |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Michie, William |
| Cowans, Harry | Mikardo, Ian |
| Craigen, J. M. | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Crowther, Stan | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Nellist, David |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | O'Brien, William |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Deakins, Eric | Park, George |
| Dewar, Donald | Parry, Robert |
| Dobson, Frank | Patchett, Terry |
| Dormand, Jack | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Dubs, Alfred | Pendry, Tom |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Pike, Peter |
| Eadie, Alex | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Eastham, Ken | Prescott, John |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Redmond, M. |
| Ewing, Harry | Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Faulds, Andrew | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) | Rogers, Allan |
| Fisher, Mark | Rooker, J. W. |
| Flannery, Martin | Rowlands, Ted |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Ryman, John |
| Foster, Derek | Sheerman, Barry |
| Foulkes, George | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Fraser, J. (Norwood) | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Skinner, Dennis |
| George, Bruce | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Godman, Dr Norman | Snape, Peter |
| Golding, John | Soley, Clive |
| Gould, Bryan | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hamilton, James (M'well N) | Straw, Jack |
| Hardy, Peter | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith | Tinn, James |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) | Wareing, Robert |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Welsh, Michael |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport East) | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Winnick, David |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Woodall, Alec |
| John, Brynmor | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Mr. Allen McKay and Mr. Don Dixon. |
| Leighton, Ronald | |
| Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Baldry, Anthony |
| Alexander, Richard | Banks, Robert (Harrogate) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Batiste, Spencer |
| Amess, David | Beith, A. J. |
| Ancram, Michael | Bendall, Vivian |
| Arnold, Tom | Benyon, William |
| Ashby, David | Berry, Sir Anthony |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Best, Keith |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Bevan, David Gilroy |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Biffen, Rt Hon John |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Biggs-Davison, Sir John |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) | Bottomley, Peter |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Hancock, Mr. Michael |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Hannam, John |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Harris, David |
| Bright, Graham | Harvey, Robert |
| Brinton, Tim | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Hawkins, C. (High Peak) |
| Browne, John | Hayes, J. |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Heddle, John |
| Budgen, Nick | Henderson, Barry |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Burt, Alistair | Hickmet, Richard |
| Butcher, John | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Butler, Hon Adam | Hill, James |
| Butterfill, John | Hind, Kenneth |
| Carlisle, John (N Luton) | Hirst, Michael |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Carttiss, Michael | Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) |
| Cash, William | Holt, Richard |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Howard, Michael |
| Chapman, Sydney | Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) |
| Chope, Christopher | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) | Hubbard-Miles, Peter |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Hunter, Andrew |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Colvin, Michael | Jackson, Robert |
| Conway, Derek | Jessel, Toby |
| Coombs, Simon | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Cope, John | Johnston, Russell |
| Corrie, John | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jones, Robert (W Herts) |
| Crouch, David | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Dicks, Terry | King, Roger (B'ham N'field) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Dover, Den | Knight, Gregory (Derby N) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Durant, Tony | Knowles, Michael |
| Dykes, Hugh | Knox, David |
| Eggar, Tim | Lang, Ian |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Latham, Michael |
| Evennett, David | Lawler, Geoffrey |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Fallon, Michael | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Farr, Sir John | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Favell, Anthony | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Lester, Jim |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) |
| Fletcher, Alexander | Lightbown, David |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Lilley, Peter |
| Forman, Nigel | Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lord, Michael |
| Forth, Eric | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Fox, Marcus | McCrindle, Robert |
| Franks, Cecil | McCurley, Mrs Anna |
| Fraser, Peter (Angus East) | MacGregor, John |
| Freeman, Roger | MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) |
| Fry, Peter | MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) |
| Gale, Roger | Maclean, David John |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Madel, David |
| Goodhart, Sir Philip | Major, John |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Malins, Humfrey |
| Gorst, John | Malone, Gerald |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Maples, John |
| Grant, Sir Anthony | Marland, Paul |
| Greenway, Harry | Marlow, Antony |
| Gregory, Conal | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds) | Mates, Michael |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Ground, Patrick | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) | Mayhew, Sir Patrick |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Merchant, Piers |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Renton, Tim |
| Mitchell, David (NW Hants) | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Moate, Roger | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Mudd, David | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Murphy, Christopher | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Neubert, Michael | Rost, Peter |
| Newton, Tony | Rowe, Andrew |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Norris, Steven | Ryder, Richard |
| Onslow, Cranley | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Oppenheim, Philip | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Ottaway, Richard | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. |
| Page, Sir John (Harrow W) | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Page, Richard (Herts SW) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Parris, Matthew | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Shersby, Michael |
| Pawsey, James | Silvester, Fred |
| Penhaligon, David | Sims, Roger |
| Pollock, Alexander | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Powley, John | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Speed, Keith |
| Raffan, Keith | Speller, Tony |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Spencer, Derek |
| Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Squire, Robin | Walden, George |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Wallace, James |
| Stern, Michael | Waller, Gary |
| Stevens, Martin (Fulham) | Ward, John |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Sumberg, David | Watson, John |
| Taylor, John (Solihull) | Watts, John |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Thomas, Rt Hon Peter | Wheeler, John |
| Thompson, Donald (Calder V) | Whitfield, John |
| Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Thorne, Neil (Ilford S) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Thurnham, Peter | Wood, Timothy |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) | Woodcock, Michael |
| Tracey, Richard | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Trippier, David | Yeo, Tim |
| Trotter, Neville | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| van Straubenzee, Sir W. | |
| Vaughan, Sir Gerard | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Viggers, Peter | Mr. Carol Mather and Mr. Robert Boscawen. |
| Waddington, David |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Lords amendment agreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 38 to 45 agreed to. [One with Special Entry.]