HC Deb 24 July 1984 vol 64 cc823-7 3.33 pm
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Does the hon. Gentleman's point of order arise out of Question Time? If not, I will take it immediately after the statement.

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Given that the answers to specific questions were far more informative and interesting than the answers given to other forms of questions, would you consider encouraging hon. Members to put down specific questions for Prime Minister's Question Time?

Mr. Speaker

That is entirely a matter for hon. Members, but, of course, I believe that it is a good idea.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Very well, I will take it now.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

As you know, Mr. Speaker, during the past five months I have raised more than 120 questions in relation to the Prime Minister's links with Cementation and, of late, in relation to the case of a British national, Mr. Robin Walsh, who has been the subject of several written questions to the Secretaries of State for Defence, for the Home Department, and for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. Mr. Robin Walsh died in prison in Oman and was mistreated there——

Mr. Speaker

Order. What is the point of order for me? I do not think that there can be any point of order for me, but if the hon. Gentleman will put his question I will see whether I can answer it.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

The point of order that I wish to raise with you specifically, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that I as a Member of this House tabled questions on the Order Paper, and the replies to those questions I gave to the Sunday Times, to The Observer and to "World in Action," and as a result of a court action brought by the Omani embassy in London last——

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is going into the arguments. What is the point of order for me as the Speaker?

Mr. Campbell-Savours

As a result of those actions brought within the courts——

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is now abusing an opportunity. I ask him now to put to me a point on which I can rule. I cannot be concerned with any programme which may have been on television or any questions that may have been put to Ministers to which the hon. Gentleman has not had reasonable answers.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

The Omani embassy in bringing that action was preventing me from carrying out my duty which was to ensure that the questions that I raised could be published by the organs of the British media, including "World in Action", which, as a result of pressure exerted on the Independent Broadcasting Authority last week, took a decision to require "World in Action"——

Mr. Speaker

Order. I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman any further. I have given him three opportunities to put a question to me. It is not a point of order —[Interruption.] Order. The hon. Gentleman, I think, is dissatisfied with answers that he has received from Departments. He has other opportunities to raise this matter. If it is a matter of privilege, he can pursue it in the ordinary way, but I cannot hear him any further on this matter, which is not a point of order for me.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.

Notice being taken that strangers were present, MR SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 136 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw:—

The House proceeded to a Division—

Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth)

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As one of the last hon. Members to use parliamentary privilege in a proper way, may I put it to you that in my opinion we have today seen a grave misuse of that privilege, and I invite you to suspend that hon. Member?

Mr. Speaker

The ploy used by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) is a legitimate parliamentary ploy. Indeed, the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) used it himself.

The House having divided: Ayes 44, Noes 295.

Division No. 423] [3.37 pm
AYES
Anderson, Donald Patchett, Terry
Ashton, Joe Pike, Peter
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Blair, Anthony Redmond, M.
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
Corbyn, Jeremy Skinner, Dennis
Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)
Eadie, Alex Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Eastham, Ken Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE) Torney, Tom
Ellis, Raymond Wareing, Robert
Evans, John (St. Helens N) Weetch, Ken
Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) Welsh, Michael
Flannery, Martin Wigley, Dafydd
Garrett, W. E. Winnick, David
Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Woodall, Alec
Hardy, Peter Young, David (Bolton SE)
Hughes, Roy (Newport East)
Janner, Hon Greville Tellers for the Ayes:
Litherland, Robert Mr. Derek Fatchett and Dr. John Marek.
Loyden, Edward
NOES
Adley, Robert Bendall, Vivian
Alexander, Richard Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay)
Alton, David Benyon, William
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Berry, Sir Anthony
Amess, David Best, Keith
Arnold, Tom Biffen, Rt Hon John
Ashby, David Biggs-Davison, Sir John
Ashdown, Paddy Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Aspinwall, Jack Boscawen, Hon Robert
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Braine, Sir Bernard
Batiste, Spencer Bright, Graham
Beith, A. J. Brinton, Tim
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Heath, Rt Hon Edward
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) Heathcoat-Amory, David
Browne, John Heddle, John
Bruinvels, Peter Henderson, Barry
Bryan, Sir Paul Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Buck, Sir Antony Hill, James
Budgen, Nick Hind, Kenneth
Bulmer, Esmond Hirst, Michael
Butcher, John Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Butler, Hon Adam Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)
Butterfill, John Holt, Richard
Carlisle, John (N Luton) Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)
Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S) Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Carttiss, Michael Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford)
Cartwright, John Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)
Cash, William Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Chapman, Sydney Hunt, David (Wirral)
Chope, Christopher Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Churchill, W. S. Hunter, Andrew
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Irving, Charles
Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Colvin, Michael Jessel, Toby
Conway, Derek Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Coombs, Simon Johnston, Russell
Cope, John Jones, Robert (W Herts)
Corbett, Robin Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Corrie, John Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Cranborne, Viscount Kennedy, Charles
Crouch, David Kershaw, Sir Anthony
Dickens, Geoffrey Key, Robert
Dicks, Terry Kirkwood, Archy
Dorrell, Stephen Knight, Gregory (Derby N)
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston)
Duffy, A. E. P. Knowles, Michael
Durant, Tony Lang, Ian
Dykes, Hugh Lawler, Geoffrey
Eggar, Tim Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Evennett, David Lee, John (Pendle)
Fairbairn, Nicholas Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)
Favell, Anthony Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Fenner, Mrs Peggy Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)
Fletcher, Alexander Lightbown, David
Fookes, Miss Janet Lilley, Peter
Forman, Nigel Lloyd, Ian (Havant)
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham)
Forth, Eric Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Lord, Michael
Franks, Cecil Luce, Richard
Fraser, Peter (Angus East) Lyell, Nicholas
Freeman, Roger McCurley, Mrs Anna
Freud, Clement Macfarlane, Neil
Gale, Roger McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Gardiner, George (Reigate) MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)
Glyn, Dr Alan Maclean, David John
Goodlad, Alastair Madden, Max
Gorst, John Madel, David
Gower, Sir Raymond Major, John
Grant, Sir Anthony Malins, Humfrey
Greenway, Harry Malone, Gerald
Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds) Maples, John
Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) Marland, Paul
Grist, Ian Marlow, Antony
Ground, Patrick Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Grylls, Michael Mates, Michael
Gummer, John Selwyn Mather, Carol
Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Hampson, Dr Keith Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Hancock, Mr. Michael Merchant, Piers
Hanley, Jeremy Meyer, Sir Anthony
Hargreaves, Kenneth Miller, Hal (B'grove)
Harris, David Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)
Haselhurst, Alan Moate, Roger
Hawkins, C. (High Peak) Monro, Sir Hector
Hawksley, Warren Montgomery, Fergus
Hayes, J. Moore, John
Hayhoe, Barney Morris, M. (N'hampton, S)
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) Squire, Robin
Murphy, Christopher Stanbrook, Ivor
Nelson, Anthony Stanley, John
Neubert, Michael Steel, Rt Hon David
Newton, Tony Stern, Michael
Nicholls, Patrick Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)
Onslow, Cranley Stevens, Martin (Fulham)
Oppenheim, Philip Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Osborn, Sir John Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
Owen, Rt Hon Dr David Stokes, John
Page, Sir John (Harrow W) Stradling Thomas, J.
Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil Sumberg, David
Patten, Christopher (Bath) Tapsell, Peter
Patten, John (Oxford) Taylor, John (Solihull)
Pattie, Geoffrey Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Pawsey, James Temple-Morris, Peter
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
Pollock, Alexander Thompson, Donald (Calder V)
Powell, William (Corby) Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)
Powley, John Thornton, Malcolm
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Thurnham, Peter
Price, Sir David Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Proctor, K. Harvey Tracey, Richard
Pym, Rt Hon Francis Twinn, Dr Ian
Raffan, Keith van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Raison, Rt Hon Timothy Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Rathbone, Tim Viggers, Peter
Renton, Tim Waddington, David
Rhodes James, Robert Wainwright, R.
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey Waldegrave, Hon William
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) Walden, George
Roe, Mrs Marion Wallace, James
Rooker, J. W. Waller, Gary
Rossi, Sir Hugh Walters, Dennis
Rost, Peter Ward, John
Rowe, Andrew Wardle, C. (Bexhill)
Ryder, Richard Warren, Kenneth
St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. Watts, John
Sayeed, Jonathan Wells, Bowen (Hertford)
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)
Shelton, William (Streatham) Whitfield, John
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Whitney, Raymond
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) Wiggin, Jerry
Shersby, Michael Wolfson, Mark
Silvester, Fred Wood, Timothy
Sims, Roger Wrigglesworth, Ian
Skeet, T. H. H. Yeo, Tim
Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Tellers for the Noes:
Soames, Hon Nicholas Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and Mr. Tim Sainsbury
Speller, Tony
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Question accordingly negatived.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Is it the same point of order?

Mr. Campbell-Savours

It relates to the point of order that I raised before.

Mr. Speaker

I am sorry, I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that I cannot accept a further point of order on that matter. I have already ruled that I cannot rule on the question that he has put to me. I gave the hon. Gentleman three, perhaps four, opportunities to put a point of order to me which I could seek to answer, but he failed to do so.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.

Mr. Speaker

Order. It has not been our practice to accept the same motion twice on the same day, and I cannot accept that motion a second time today.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I order the hon. Gentleman to resume his place.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Is it the same point of order?

Mr. Skinner

No, but it is about the same issue.

Mr. Speaker

I have already told the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) that I cannot rule on his point of order. If the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is seeking to raise the same point of order, I must give him the same answer. He is only wasting the time of the House. If he wishes to raise a different point of order, I shall hear it.

Mr. Skinner

It must be different because a different Member is raising it.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well what I mean. Is his point of order on the same subject as that raised by the hon. Member for Workington?

Mr. Skinner

It is on the same subject, that is for sure

Mr. Speaker

Then I cannot hear it.

Mr. Skinner

I want to raise it because I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) is being gagged.