§ 24. Mr. Greenwayasked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what percentage of clergy stipends for the latest year for which figures are available were paid by direct lay giving compared with 10, 20 and 30 years ago; what cash figures are involved; and if he will make a statement.
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeAs the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report. However, I can tell my hon. Friend that the proportion of lay giving for clergy stipends has risen from 25 per cent. in 1963–64 to 43 per cent. in 1983–84.
§ Mr. GreenwayAre not those figures remarkable? Does my hon. Friend consider that the laity get value for money? If so, how does he measure that value?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeThe figures are, I admit, remarkable. The proportion of giving by the laity will, so far as can be foreseen, continue to rise, particularly as standards rise in terms of pensions, stipends and housing. I would not want to enter into speculation as to how one measures those.
§ Mr. Frank FieldThe Commission and the laity are to be congratulated on raising the pay of the clergy. Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the current level of pay is either fair or adequate?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeIt is a substantial improvement on anything in the past, taken in conjunction 15 with housing—with house, rents and outgoings being totally free, as they should be — but there is always room for improvement, and it is that which the laity is seeking to achieve.
§ Mr. StokesDoes my hon. Friend agree that the increase in the proportion paid by the laity is extremely gratifying? Is he aware that although some of us are frequent critics of the clergy, and of the higher clergy, we believe, nevertheless, that they do wonderful work for the pay they receive?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeThat is right, and I am certain that financial consideration is the last thing that motivates the clergy.
§ Mr. Peter BruinvelsDoes my hon. Friend attribute this remarkable turnround to more covenanting throughout the country and perhaps to the fact that the laity now has knowledge of where the money is going?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeI should like to think that the educative process undertaken by the Church Commissioners, in particular, is bearing fruit because, as my hon. Friend says, it is now possible for the laity to be far better informed than before. The use of covenanting is an important part of the process.
§ Mr. Skinnerrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerIf I call the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) to ask a supplementary question, will he do me a favour and stick to the subject please?
§ Mr. SkinnerIt will make a novel change if hon. Members stick to the subject, Mr. Speaker.
Does the hon. Member for Wokingham (Sir W. van Straubenzee) appreciate that when people are collecting money from the laity to finance the clergy, they come up against many other people making other collections? Is he aware that a problem which they are coming up against today, and why they are probably not collecting as much as they otherwise would, is that people all over the country, even in Finchley, are collecting money for the miners? They are collecting money hand over fist—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. SkinnerI am not quite done, Mr. Speaker.
Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that if only the emphasis in church magazines was changed in support of the miners, the collections on behalf of the miners could stop and the amounts collected for the clergy would go up?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeOn the whole, there is not much competition. My observation is that members of all churches have taken a balanced view of the matter and that, in particular, they have an abhorrence and horror of the kind of intimidation that they have been witnessing.
Following are the figures:For 1983–84 the percentage of clergy stipends paid by the laity was 43 per cent. the cost to the parishioners being £32.7 million.In 1973–74, 10 years ago, the laity met £5.7 million or 23 per cent. of the cost of clergy stipends.In 1963–64, 20 years ago, the laity met £3.7 million or 25 per cent. of clergy stipends.No figures are available for 30 years ago.