§ Mr. HurdI beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 4, line 16, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'fifteen'.
This is an important amendment responding to pleas made to us in Standing Committee. I shall deal, first, with one subsidiary issue. In the debates in another place and in Standing Committee doubts were expressed as to whether a cable licence would be required during the installation period when test transmissions were being run over the new system, but no proper service to subscribers 779 was being provided. My hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale) made that point. It was argued that if a licence were required in those circumstances, it could wipe as much as a year or more off the effective life of the licence. Having considered this matter, we are fully satisfied that, as the Bill is drafted, no cable licence is needed until the service is provided to subscribers. Test transmissions cannot be regarded as a proper service.
The main purpose of the amendment is to extend the period of the initial cable licence from 12 to 15 years. My right hon. and learned Friend and I carefully considered the case made in Committee to that effect. The establishment of a cable service is a high-risk venture. It will need substantial investment capital at the beginning and a long wait before the investment is recouped. In present circumstances, we are satisfied that it would be right to provide for those who are to make those large investments a rather longer period for the initial franchise than we had originally proposed. The amendment extends the period from 12 to 15 years. It covers only the initial licence period.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will make similar extensions to the telecommunications licences to bring them into line, although that does not involve any change in the law. For tree and branch systems the licence period will be extended from 12 to 15 years and for switched-star systems from 20 to 23 years.
§ Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby)The Minister has cobbled together an extraordinary Bill for our delectation. This amendment is perhaps symbolic of cobbling together, because we have finished up with a process which is similar to what my grandmother used to embark upon—making bedspreads. She would obtain a bit of cloth, something she had inherited from her grandmother—the wisdom of the independent television legislation, bits from the BBC and from overseas —a bit of cloth from her mother, and a bit of cloth from interested parties, and there they would be gathering round like bees around the honeypot. She would have a few suggestions from the Home Secretary, which would be incomprehensible as usual, she would stitch them together and finish up with something—these days it would probably be in a folk museum—which I thought was horrible at the time. And so is this legislation. None of the pieces fitted. It was the product of a series of afterthoughts. That is what the Minister has given us with the Bill.
Amendment No. 6 is perhaps the most monstrous of the afterthoughts because of the processes by which it was conceived. They were processes which cast a sad light on the way that the Government function, and particularly their vulnerability to pressure from the vested interests of members of the Conservative party who have nothing else to do to keep them off the streets but to press the Government to give favours to their friends. That is what they did in Committee. It was a repellant process, and it culminated in this extension of the cable franchise from 12 to 15 years. The Minister presents it as a considered response after long and reasoned discussion, but it is a humiliating collapse of any interest in standards before the pressure of his hon. Friends in Committee and outside.
The amendment is a mixture of organisational incompetence and the afterthoughts of the Home Office. The number of amendments with which we are dealing today is an appalling reflection on the way that the Bill has 780 been prepared. We had 79 amendments on the last day in Committee. We now have this series of amendments. This is no way to pass legislation and provide for the future of a service which will have an important influence on the life of the country and on all our lives. It has been provided for in bits and pieces, by stitching and cobbling together. It is partly the result of administrative incompetence, but it is due also to a lack of co-ordination between different Government Departments.
The Prime Minister's initial manic enthusiasm for cable television was as bright and unfixed as her eyes, to paraphrase Pope. That enthusiasm passed from cable to direct broadcasting by satellite and left the Home Office struggling with legislation that the Prime Minister had especially wanted to rush through to suit her own enthusiasm. However, she failed to communicate her enthusiasm to the Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's best friends would not say that his greatest penchant was to listen to advice or counsel from others. He formulated his Budget strategy, part of which wipes out in two stages the investment allowances. Those who had applied for cable franchises had predicated their financial forecasts, profitability and date of breaking even on those investment allowances. By eliminating capital allowances the Chancellor of the Exchequer effectively knocked for six the calculations of the cable applicants.
The Government were faced with the humiliating climb-down of having one length of time for those who promised to use one system of cabling and another period of time for those who promised to use the superior system of cabling. It was a carrot to lure them from the tree and branch system to the star system. The Government had carefully worked out that strategy, but were forced to climb down and abandon their initial inclination to 12 years. They changed it at the behest of their supporters who are sitting gloating on the Back Benches, as they did in Committee, at the success of their pressure group tactics to get special concessions for their friends. The Government gave way, and that concession is made manifest in amendment No. 6. Because that was the process, because it is a concession to vested interests and because it is an ill-considered step, I advise my hon. Friends — not exactly tumultuously assembled — to oppose the concession.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 202, Noes 79.
782| Division No. 397] | [9.12 pm |
| AVES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Cope, John |
| Alton, David | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Dykes, Hugh |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Eggar, Tim |
| Bellingham, Henry | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Body, Richard | Farr, Sir John |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Favell, Anthony |
| Brinton, Tim | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Fletcher, Alexander |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. | Forth, Eric |
| Budgen, Nick | Fox, Marcus |
| Burt, Alistair | Franks, Cecil |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) | Freeman, Roger |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Freud, Clement |
| Cash, William | Gale, Roger |
| Chapman, Sydney | Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) |
| Chope, Christopher | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Cockeram, Eric | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Colvin, Michael | Gorst, John |
| Coombs, Simon | Gregory, Conal |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Ground, Patrick | Neubert, Michael |
| Grylls, Michael | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) | Norris, Steven |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Onslow, Cranley |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Oppenheim, Philip |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Ottaway, Richard |
| Hawkins, C. (High Peak) | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) | Parris, Matthew |
| Hawksley, Warren | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Hayes, J. | Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Pollock, Alexander |
| Heddle, John | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Henderson, Barry | Powley, John |
| Hickmet, Richard | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Hicks, Robert | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Hind, Kenneth | Raffan, Keith |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Holt, Richard | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Hooson, Tom | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf"d-on-A) | Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) | Ryder, Richard |
| Howells, Geraint | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Hubbard-Miles, Peter | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Hunter, Andrew | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Johnson-Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Johnston, Russell | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Jones, Robert (W Herts) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Kennedy, Charles | Spencer, Derek |
| Key, Robert | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Knight, Gregory (Derby N) | Steen, Anthony |
| Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) | Stern, Michael |
| Knowles, Michael | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| Knox, David | Stevens, Martin (Fulham) |
| Latham, Michael | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Sumberg, David |
| Lester, Jim | Taylor, John (Solihull) |
| Lightbown, David | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Lilley, Peter | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Lord, Michael | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Luce, Richard | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Thorne, Neil (llford S) |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Thurnham, Peter |
| MacGregor, John | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Tracey, Richard |
| Maclean, David John | Trotter, Neville |
| Maclennan, Robert | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Waddington, David |
| Major, John | Wainwright, R. |
| Malins, Humfrey | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Malone, Gerald | Walden, George |
| Maples, John | Walker, Bill (T"side N) |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| Mather, Carol | Waller, Gary |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Ward, John |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Warren, Kenneth |
| Merchant, Piers | Watson, John |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Watts, John |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Moate, Roger | Wheeler, John |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Whitfield, John |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) | Whitney, Raymond |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Mudd, David | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Murphy, Christopher | Wolfson, Mark |
| Neale, Gerrard | Wood, Timothy |
| Needham, Richard | Woodcock, Michael |
| Yeo, Tim | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Young, Sir George (Acton) | Mr. Donald Thompson and Mr. Ian Lang. |
| NOES | |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Barron, Kevin | Lamond, James |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Leighton, Ronald |
| Benn, Tony | Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Litherland, Robert |
| Boyes, Roland | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | McTaggart, Robert |
| Caborn, Richard | Madden, Max |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Maxton, John |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Michie, William |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Mitchell, Austin (G 't Grimsby) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | Nellist, David |
| Cohen, Harry | O'Brien, William |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Parry, Robert |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Corbett, Robin | Pike, Peter |
| Cowans, Harry | Prescott, John |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Redmond, M, |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Deakins, Eric | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| Dormand, Jack | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Eadie, Alex | Skinner, Dennis |
| Eastham, Ken | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E) |
| Ewing, Harry | Soley, Clive |
| Fatchett, Derek | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) | Tinn, James |
| Forrester, John | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Foster, Derek | Wareing, Robert |
| George, Bruce | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Golding, John | Wilson, Gordon |
| Gould, Bryan | Winnick, David |
| Gourlay, Harry | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Hamilton, James (M'well N) | |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Don Dixon. |
| Home Robertson, John | |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr. SpeakerWith this we may discuss Government amendment No. 9.
§ Mr. HurdThese are both minor, technical amendments which simply improve the drafting of clause 4 in two places.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment made: No. 9 in page 5, line 2 leave out
`by virtue of that paragraph in a licence'
and insert
'in a licence by virtue of that paragraph'.—[Mr. Hurd.]
§ Mr. HurdI beg to move amendment No. 10, in page 5, line 10 at end insert—
'(6A) The payment or payments required to be rendered to the Authority by conditions included in a licence by virtue of subsection (5)(b) above shall be such as to represent what appears to the Authority to be the appropriate contribution of the holder of the licence towards meeting the sums which the Authority regard as necessary in order to discharge their duty under section 18(1) below. '.In Committee some of my hon. Friends were worried that the Cable Authority's powers to charge licence fees might provide it with money with which it could make 783 grants or subsidies. The Bill gives the authority no power to make such grants. Therefore, on re-examination we remain satisfied that there is no need to write anything specific into the Bill precluding it from doing something which it has no power to do. However, in the light of the Committee's discussions, we accepted that there was some advantage in inserting in the Bill an explicit link between the authority's power to raise fees from its licensees and its financial duties in clause 18. That point was particularly emphasised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Neale) — hence the amendment, which introduces a new subsection into clause 4 making it absolutely clear that each licence fee is to represent what the authority thinks is the licence holder's appropriate contribution towards the costs incurred by the authority in discharging its duty.
§ Amendment agreed to.