HC Deb 09 July 1984 vol 63 cc835-8

Amendments made: No. 156, in page 49, line 36, leave out from beginning to end of line 4 on page 50.—[Mr. Hurd.]

No. 157, in page 50, line 38, at end insert 'as they apply in relation to newspapers'.

No. 158, in page 51, line 9 at end insert 'as it applies in relation to newspapers'.

No. 159, in page 51, line 11 leave out 'Copyright Act 1956' and insert '1956 Act'.

No. 160, in page 51 leave out lines 35 to 37.

No. 161, in page 51, line 38 leave out 'section 14(10)' and insert `subsection (10) of section 14'.

No. 162, in page 52, line 3at end insert— '(8A) After that subsection there shall be inserted the following subsection— (11) The foregoing provisions of this section shall have effect as if references in those provisions and in section 12(9) of this Act to sounds included references to signals serving for the impartation of matter otherwise than in the form of sounds or visual images.".'.—[Mr. Hurd.]

Mr. Hurd

I beg to move amendment No. 163, in page 53, line 33 at beginning insert—

`For the purposes of this Act no account shall be taken of a cable programme service if, and to the extent that, it is provided for—

  1. (a) a person providing another such service;
  2. (b) the Corporation; or
  3. (c) the Authority;
and for the purposes of this subsection a cable programme service provided for the Welsh Fourth Channel Authority, the subsidiary mentioned in section 12(2) of the Broadcasting Act 1981 or a programme contractor within the meaning of that Act shall be treated as provided for the Authority.

(3B)'

This is a technical amendment to remove from the purview of copyright cable transmissions between broadcasting and similar organisations intended for networking purposes, and not for direct reception by the public.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made:

No. 164, in page 54, line 20 leave out from first 'of' to `to' in line 23 and insert `the said Act of 1984 or a service provided outside the United Kingdom which would be such a service if subsection (7) of section 2 of that Act and references in subsection (1) of that section.

No. 166, in page 55, line 36 after 'or', insert 'for'.

No. 167, in page 57, line 14 leave out 'service within the meaning of Part I of the Cable and Broadcasting Act 1984' and insert 'cable programme service'.

No. 168, in page 58, line 36 at end insert `as they apply in relation to newspapers'.

No. 169, in page 58, line 40 after 'or', insert 'for'.

No. 170, in page 59, line 4 after 'or', insert 'for'.

No. 171, in page 59, line 11 after 'a', insert `licensable'.

No. 172, in page 59, line 22 after 'a', insert 'licensed'.

No. 173, in page 62, line 38 leave out 'Broadcasting Act 1981' and insert '1981 Act'.

No. 174, in page 63, leave out lines 14 to 19.

No. 175, in page 63, line 19 at end insert— '(5A) For subsection (2) of section 42 of that Act (accounts and audit) there shall be substituted the following subsections— (2) The accounts of the Authority shall be audited by auditors to be appointed by the Authority with the approval of the Secretary of State. (2A) A person shall not be qualified to be appointed as an auditor in pursuance of subsection (2) above unless he is a member of one or more of the following bodies—

but a Scottish firm may be so appointed if each of the partners in the firm is qualified to be so appointed.".'.

No. 176, in page 63, line 24 leave out `(unless the contrary intention appears)'.

No. 177, in page 63, leave out lines 26 to 30 and insert— '(7) After paragraph 1 of Schedule 4 to that Act (rental payments) there shall be inserted the following paragraph— 1A. In the principal sections (other than section 33(1)) and the following provisions of this Schedule references to advertising receipts—

  1. (a) in relation to a DBS programme contractor, and in relation to any period, include references to payments received or to be received by that contractor in respect of charges made for the reception of programmes provided by him and broadcast in a DBS service in that period; and
  2. (b) in relation to a teletext contractor, and in relation to any period, include references to payments received or to be received by that contractor in respect of charges made for the reception of programmes provided by him and broadcast in a DBS or additional teletext service in that period."
(7A) In paragraph 2 of that Schedule—'.

No. 178, in page 63, line 37, at end insert— `(bb) in sub-paragraph (7) for the words "the provisions of paragraph 1" there shall be substituted the words "the foregoing provisions of this Schedule"; and'.

No. 179, in page 63, line 43, at end insert— '(9) At the end of paragraph 8(2) of Schedule 7 to that Act (the Broadcasting Complaints Commission: supplementary provisions) there shall be inserted the words "but a Scottish firm may be so appointed if each of the partners in the firm is qualified to be so appointed".'.

No. 180, in page 64, line 3, after 'a', insert `licensable'.

No. 181, in page 64, line 27, leave out `Telecommunications Act 1984' and insert '1984 Act'. —[Mr. Hurd.]

Mr. Brinton

I beg to move amendment No. 182, in page 64, line 38, leave out 'licensable' and insert 'cable programme'.

The object of the amendment is to extend the obligatory consultations between Oftel and the cable authority to licensing of interactive services and teletext services. As the Bill stands, the director of Oftel or the Secretary of State has to consult the authority when granting or revoking a licence within the meaning of part I of the Cable and Broadcasting Act. By substituting "cable programme" service for "licensable" service, the definition would be broadened to include teletext and other interactive services which are covered by cable programme service and not by just the licensable service in clause 2(1) and (2). This measure will be beneficial to the Bill. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State will consider it.

Mr. Hurd

I take this last opportunity to thank all hon. Members, especially my right hon. and hon. Friends, for all the help they have given us in Standing Committee and throughout the rest of the proceedings. I understand the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Brinton) and the purpose of his amendment. I stress, as I have done before, that we cannot think of cable systems in isolation — they are just one form of the whole range of telecommunications systems. The amendment would apply to the range of systems, not just to those that we have commonly called cable systems.

Let us take the case of two companies wishing to set up a computer link between themselves or their subsidiaries. At each end the information is received on a visual display. This would be a telecommunications system, and as such the companies involved would need to apply to the Secretary of State for a licence under the Telecommunications Act 1984. The amendment would mean that the Secretary of State would have to consult the cable authority as well. That would be unnecessarily bureaucratic, because the cable authority in that case would have only an indirect interest at best. No doubt there will be cases where businesses and domestic services are delivered over the same system.

I am not suggesting that the cable authority should be precluded from giving its views when a decision of the telecommunications licensing authorities is likely to affect its own licensees. Of course, the cable authority is free to offer advice, as I am sure it would do, and the Secretary of State would listen carefully to what the authority had to say. I doubt, however, if it is really necessary to provide in those circumstances for the procedures which my hon. Friend proposed.

Licences are not available on demand, because the Secretary of State can grant a licence only if it complies with the firm duties set out in section 3 of the Telecommunications Act. For example — I know that this touches on the type of example that my hon. Friend has in mind—the Secretary of State must first ensure that if there is a reasonable demand for telecommunications service for instance, the demand from people in a particular area to have information services conveyed to them by the second operator, he must grant a licence. He can do so only if he is satisfied that by granting a licence for an additonal system he will not damage the ability of those already providing a service to continue to provide them to meet all reasonable demands. I believe that that provision offers protection in the type of cases about which my hon. Friend is understandably anxious.

Mr. Brinton

In view of that somewhat encouraging reply and the statements made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, I believe that the issue has been clarified. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: No. 183, in page 64, line 38, leave out `service within the meaning of Part I of the Cable and Broadcasting Act 1984', and insert 'cable programme service'.

No. 184, in page 64, line 42, at end insert— '(lA) In subsection (1) of section 42 of that Act (fraudulent use of telecommunication system) for the words "service provided by means of a licensed telecommunication system" there shall be substituted the words "service to which this subsection applies". (1B) In subsection (2) of that section for the words "In this section 'licensed telecommunication system' means" there shall be substituted the words "Subsection (1) above applies to any service (other than a service to which section (Fraudulently receiving certain programmes) of the Cable and Broadcasting Act 1984 applies) which is provided by means of .'.

No. 185, in page 64, line 45, at end insert—

    c838
  1. 'The Video Recordings Act 1984 37 words