ENTRY AND SEARCH OF PREMISES (Hansard, 9 July 1984)

§ Mr. Hurd
I beg to move amendment No. 76, in page 29, line 6, after 'committed', insert 'on any premises specified in the information'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to take Government amendment No. 77.

§ Mr. Hurd
The Opposition expressed concern in Committee about the powers of entry and search. I 812 considered the issue carefully and I have tried to meet their concern by tightening up the provisions. I hope that the Opposition are satisfied.

§ Mr. Corbett
We are grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has tried to meet the concern that we expressed in Committee.

§ Mr. Corbett
I beg to move amendment No. 78, in page 29, line 8, at end insert 'and that it is not excluded material or special procedure material as defined in section 9 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984'. Having recently congratulated the Minister on the way in which he tried to meet the Opposition's concern in Committee, I must now say that we regret that he did not go far enough. We are talking about what appears to be a never-ending legion of persons who can force their way into our homes. That may be a rather dramatic remark, but there is great concern among many about those who can get warrants or obtain powers to permit them to enter our homes irrespective of whether we are on the premises.
The subject of the amendment is someone who is suspected of being a pirate broadcaster, to use the well-known phrase. The Minister responded to a letter from the Association of Cinematograph, Television and Allied Technicians on 17 May, and when dealing with the clause he wrote that it confers no powers of seizure or apparatus etc. and is valid only for one month. Does "etc." include documents? A warrant will be issued by a magistrate if he is satisfied, after hearing evidence on oath, that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence under clause 3 has been or is being committed. That means that the premises are being or have been used for the purpose of a pirate broadcast. It is unclear from the right hon. Gentleman's letter to the ACTT whether, following that search, the police officer can remove items. The Minister's letter tells us that the clause confers no powers of seizure of apparatus". In other words, the officer cannot get hold of the transmitter which is being used in an illegal manner, put it in his knapsack and run it down the road to the nick.
My query is directed to "etc." There is a serious issue that underlies the amendment and there is some irony in the Opposition praying in aid the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill. The Minister, myself and many other hon. Members had the pleasure—I think that is the word—of serving on the Committees that considered both the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill and this Bill.
11.15 pm
In the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill there is what is referred to as excluded material and special procedure material. To encourage the right hon. Gentleman to meet our point, we thought that it could be suitably encapsulated if we took those words from the Polic and Criminal Evidence Bill to try to restrict the powers of entry and search of premises in relation to pirate broadcasting under the terms of the Cable and Broadcasting Bill.
It would, for example, be wrong that the police should be able to obtain a warrant for the search of premises, say, of an accountant or a doctor for evidence relating to an 813 offence under the Cable and Broadcasting Bill, when that power did not exist under the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill in regard to the definitions of excluded material and special procedure material. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be able to reassure us on that point.

§ Mr. Hurd
I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman, after all his experience, should have fallen into line with the concepts of special procedure material and excluded material. That is very gratifying. However, I do not think that they are really appropriate here.
The word "etc." in my letter does include documents. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman realises that we are not talking here about seizure; there is no power of seizure in the clause. We are talking about a power to search and obtain evidence by observation rather than by taking away apparatus or documents. We are not talking here about police powers. If the police were by chance to be involved in the process, the provisions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill, when enacted, would apply. On the whole, we are talking here of the execution of warrants by the employees of the authority. I shall be moving an amendment on that point shortly. I think it would be a mistake to seek to apply the special statutory provisions about police powers to all those who may have a power of search.
We are requiring the consent of a justice of the peace to a search through the warrant procedure and, before any prosecution can be brought, obviously the Director of Public Prosecutions must give his consent. We are not talking about a power which can be exercised arbitrarily, and I hope that cable piracy will be an infrequent occurrence. If the police were ever involved, the provisions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill would apply. With that explanation, I hope that the hon. Member will not press the amendment.

§ Mr. Austin Mitchell
The question was really whether, under this legislation, greater powers are conferred on the police in regard to right of search than are conferred in respect of the commercial television contractors.

§ Mr. Hurd
I do not know. I do not have the Broadcasting Acts at hand and I shall have to let the hon. Member know the answer to that question.

§ Mr. Corbett
In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and tempted as I was to call upon the legions of my right hon. and hon. Friends who are hovering about, ready to go into the Lobbies, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Hurd
I beg to move amendment No. 80, in page 29, line 19, leave out from first 'or to `shall' in line 22 and insert `any legal proceedngs or of a report of any such proceedings, any information obtained by means of an exercise of powers conferred by this section'. The amendment is in response to a point made by the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott) in Committee. I hope he will feel that I have done my best to recognise it.