HC Deb 06 July 1984 vol 63 cc620-4

Lords amendment: No. 34, in page 11, line 33, at end insert— In this subsection "the standard scale" has the meaning given by section 75 of the Criminal Justice Act 1982.

11.45 am
Mr. Bright

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this we may take Lords amendment No. 35.

Mr. Bright

I am one of the few hon. Members who have stuck to the rules today. I have not deviated from our discussions and I have tried to play the game throughout the passage of the Bill. That is why we have a fairly complex measure. I have tried to meet the wishes of the Opposition and of some outside organisations, which have then turned round and called the Bill a dog's breakfast.

Some kind words have been said by those who have thanked me for introducing the Bill. I thank those people and, as this is the last time that I shall speak during the passage of the Bill, I should like also to thank all those who have helped me to get the Bill through.

I particularly thank Opposition Members, including the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Health (Mr. Howell), who has been a great friend during the passage of the Bill. I also offer thanks to members of another place, particularly my noble Friend Lord Nugent, and to hon. Members who have supported me for a long time; the Bill was introduced over a year ago.

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary has been a great friend. He was a friend before I introduced the Bill, but he is an even greater friend now and we have worked closely throughout the passage of the Bill. I also thank the staff at the Home Office. Without them and their expertise in drafting and so on the Bill would never have got off the ground. I also thank my own staff.

On Third Reading I thanked my wife Valerie and mentioned that she was expecting a child. I have been dreading getting a message today telling me to rush to the hospital. I told Valerie to wait until after the Bill had got through.

We have wandered a little in our debate. Any hon. Member who wishes to raise further matters may do so outside the Chamber. I have a good answer for every point that can be made, having rehearsed them throughout the past year.

Amendment No. 34 is technical. When the Bill left this House, clause 15(4) dealt with the meaning of the standard scale in subsection (3) and ensured that it had the meaning assigned to it by section 75 of the Criminal Justice Act 1982. It also provided for that section to apply to Northern Ireland and ensured that, for the purposes of the penalties in clause 15(3), any inflation-proofing order made in respect of fines applying in England and Wales would extend to Northern Ireland. However, as a result of the Fines and Penalties (Northern Ireland) Order 1984 which comes into force on 18 July, references to the "standard scale", are, for Northern Ireland, automatically translated into references to the standard scale established by that order. The ad hoc extension to Northern Ireland of the relevant provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 1982 is, therefore, no longer required. The amendments make the necessary adjustments to the Bill.

Mr. Gareth Wardell (Gower)

I should like to thank the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) for taking over my initial idea in this difficult area. The drafting problems have been considerable. Difficulties are caused by the effect of the Bill on children. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the enormous amount of work that he has done. I also pay tribute to the Minister. At all times he has been prepared to listen carefully to the arguments. He has taken them on board, considered them carefully and come back with cogent answers which have been much to the point. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) because of the considerable work that he has done.

I am sure that the measure will fill a huge gap in the law. Up to now, children have been able to hire or buy video cassettes containing scenes of depravity and horror, the existence of which is difficult even for hon. Members to accept. I commend the Bill to people outside. Inevitably, we shall experience problems.

The House of Lords did much work on the Bill. I was particularly pleased with the amendment to clause 4—which also applies to clause 12—which fills a technical loophole in connection with 18R video cassettes. As the hon. Member for Luton, South said, such cassettes might have been available outside factory gates and elsewhere. Remedying that is a considerable advance.

I am glad to have the opportunity to thank all who contributed so tremendously to the Bill's passage and to the classification of video cassettes, which, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Small Heath said, lies at the heart of the Bill. Classification will inform parents so that they know what is available and can make the choice of what is appropriate for their children to watch.

Mr. Colvin

I crave indulgence to add a few remarks of appreciation and to echo what has been said by hon. Members on both sides of the House.

I have been thanked for being the unofficial Whip during the passage of the Bill. According to the book "Honourable Members" written by my hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire, North (Mr. Needham), the only qualification required for a Conservative Whip is to be 6ft 1in tall, and an ex-guardsman. I have those two qualifications. Other qualifications were not required, because hon. Members on both sides demonstrated the utmost co-operation and appreciation of the need to get the Bill, in a proper state, on to the statute book.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) on the way in which he tackled the Bill from the start. He has needed a certain amount of courage, particularly in relation to the controversial question of 18R cassettes. He was persuaded to challenge the holy trinity of the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and Mrs. Mary Whitehouse. He won the argument. That took guts, tact and persuasion. That issue was probably the most controversial of all.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Brinton) said that the British Videogram Association might not think that the word "welcome" was the right word to use to describe its reaction to the Bill. From discussions that I have had with retailers and video libraries, it is clear that they believe that the sooner the Bill is on the statute book the better, so that they know precisely where they stand. Retailers and libraries will be pleased when the Bill becomes law.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South is the promoter of the Bill because of the luck of the draw. There but for the luck of the draw sit at least 100 hon. Members. If any one of us had succeeded in the ballot, we should have chosen such a measure to promote. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South and all other hon. Members who have taken part. I wish the Bill a speedy passage to the statute book. Among other things, it fulfils a Conservative party manifesto commitment.

Mr. Brinton

As one of the two dissenters today, I should like to pour oil on temporarily troubled waters. My late and much missed colleague, Reginald Bosanquet, wrote a book called "Let's get through Wednesday". After this morning, my book will be called "Let's get through Friday". I expressed myself rather badly first thing this morning. The problem is that the British Videogram Association sees the need to ban the nasty and provide some advice for parents.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright), because of his luck in the ballot, evolved a way which inevitably creates ripples and attracts criticism. The meat of this place is opposition. I hope that my hon Friend agrees that it is right that some of us should try to oppose certain proposals and offer constructive arguments.

My main purpose is to add my deep congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South, who has worked so hard and made considerable sacrifices. I hope that the success for which he dreams will be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

Mr. Denis Howell

I thank the hon. Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright), the Minister and officials for their co-operation. I include the unofficial Whip, the hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) in my thanks. I can now reveal that he sent me notes from time to time which would never have emanated from the Whips Office and which were much more welcome on that account.

The way in which Ministers, officials and hon. Members from both sides have dealt with this matter makes me believe that we should have more such cooperation in the future. Private Members have a role to play. Hon. Members are often frustrated when confronted with wagon after wagon of Government Bills. I hope that the business managers and the appropriate Select Committee will remember that private Members have a contribution to make on some great social issues for which the Government cannot find the time or resources. When there is all-party support for a private Member's Bill, our parliamentary life is enhanced. It is in that setting that we express our appreciation.

I am glad that reference has been made to the role of my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell). He introduced the subject to the House early on, but his Bill fell by the wayside. He produced a paving measure—that is the appropriate term these days — which was successful in that it led to the introduction of the Bill before us.

I am appreciative of the consideration that was given to the Bill in another place, especially by my great Lord Houghton. We all know that he is a doughty champion of liberty, and it is right that he made us defend every clause of the Bill, even if we did not agree with him. He subjected every provision to searching examination.

12 noon

When the Bill is enacted, it will be a useful measure for protecting the standards of our society. It will create a sense of responsibility through certification and not by censorship. I accept that we may not have everything entirely right. Perhaps Lord Houghton and some of our other libertarian friends will prove to be right in some instances. If events prove that we have not got everything exactly right, we can always return to these matters again and correct any abuses. At least we have attempted to get it right, and I believe that we have succeeded in large measure.

Mr. Mellor

The Bill is a moderate and common sense approach to a problem which is causing deep concern to many people. In passing the Bill we shall ensure that there is a moderate response to the video problem, when it would have been easy to go over the top. Above all, it is an effective response. Although there are laws which prohibit obscenity on video as well as in any other form, they were not effective in biting on the problem before damage was done. The Bill provides an effective way of dealing with the problem. I am sure that we shall all be proud when we see the Bill in operation and realise that we were associated with it.

Many people have worked extremely hard on the Bill. As I think that it is an important measure, I do not begrudge the time that I or my officials have spent on it. I am grateful to hon. Members on both sides of the House for demonstrating that our efforts have been appreciated.

The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) has been a stalwart comrade in arms throughout the passage of the Bill and has added greatly to the pleasure that we have all taken in being associated with it. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) has been enormously helpful. This help has not been limited merely to accepting the Bill uncritically for he has expressed a number of thoughts which have found their way into the Bill by means of amendments. The Bill emerges the stronger because of his constructive interest. I am grateful to many of my hon. Friends for supporting the Bill throughout its appearances in this place.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) has done an outstanding job. Many hon. Members hoped that they would be successful in the ballot, but there must be many who doubt whether they could have given the job the commitment that my hon. Friend has demonstrated, or have done it as effectively. He has been tireless in his advocacy of the Bill. He tells me that about 15,000 letters on the Bill have passed through his office over the past eight months, all of which he has answered. In addition, he has had to continue with the busy life of a constituency Member. I understand that he has attended about 300 meetings to discuss the Bill. Anyone who has had a point of view on the Bill and has wanted to meet my hon. Friend has been able to do so, because he has made himself available to all.

Since the time when my hon. Friend knew that he had emerged at the top of the ballot and elected to introduce the Bill, he has spent about two working days on it, or their equivalent, every week. That is a tremendous commitment. It proves the quality of my hon. Friend and the strength of our system, for the very reasons advanced by the right hon. Member for Small Heath. There is a real role for a private Member, and my hon. Friend can take as much pride in the passage of this Bill as anyone can in the passage of any measure in recent years.

It is encouraging to know that my hon. Friend retains some time for family life. I understand that this will be an exciting week for him, because he will have placed a major Bill on the statute book and, with any luck, his wife will be safely delivered of a bright spark within a few days. His cup will truly overflow with happiness. Certainly no one deserves that happiness more than he does. I thank him on behalf of us all for what he has done.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 35 agreed to.