Parthenon Marbles (Hansard, 23 January 1984)

§ 28. Mr. Canavan
asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether the Minister for the Arts has yet come to any conclusion in his consideration of the request by the Greek Government for the return of the Parthenon marbles to Greece.

§ Mr. Waldegrave
A formal reply to the Greek Government's request will be given soon.

§ Mr. Canavan
What possible justification can there be for Britain hanging on to the marbles, which were stolen by Lord Elgin from the people of Greece? In the interests of simple justice and good relations between Britain and Greece, will the Minister ensure that the marbles are returned to their rightful owners and sited as near as possible to their original environment?

§ Mr. Waldegrave
The marbles were not stolen from anyone. A Select Committee has looked into the matter and decided that they were not stolen. The hon. Gentleman's comments are almost as foolish and ignorant as those of the Leader of the Opposition who, such was his ignorance of the matter, made it appear that he thought that the Greek Government proposed to put the marbles back on the Parthenon, which is, of course, out of the question. The right hon. Gentleman said: The Parthenon without the marbles is like a smile with a tooth missing. He proposed the absurd idea of the marbles spending six months here and six months in Greece, which the Greeks, being sensible people, rejected. The Labour party will get used to back-of-an-envelope policy-making, but that was a poor example of it.

Mr. Jackson
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Parthenon marbles are as much a part of the heritage of Western civilisation as a whole as they are a factor in the would-be national myths of modern Greece? In that case, are they not as well placed in London as they would be elsewhere?

§ Mr. Waldegrave
I think that that is so. Indeed, a process that started the destruction of the great museums of the world—if hon. Members look at question No. 30 on the Order Paper, they will see that this will not be the last such demand—would be a major disaster for world culture as well as for European culture.

§ Mr. Robert Sheldon
Is the Under-Secretary aware that if it were practicable to replace the marbles on the Parthenon there would be a very strong case for doing so? As it is only a question of taking them from one museum to another, that is a much less attractive idea, except in the context of a general cultural interchange.

§ Mr. Waldegrave
The right hon. Gentleman is better informed than his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, because that is, indeed, the proposal. I sympathise with what he said, but if we started breaking up the great museums by repatriating items, it would be a very serious mistake.

§ Mr. Cormack
May we take it from my hon. Friend's robust and sensible answers that there is no question of the Government being bludgeoned or seduced into parting with the marbles?

§ Mr. Waldegrave
I hope that all that my hon. Friend can learn from my replies is that the answer that will be given by the Government in due course will be better considered than the policy proposed by the Leader of the Opposition.

§ Mr. Buchan
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the picture that he has given of my right hon. Friend's concept and understanding of the problem of the marbles is wrong? Whatever may be attributable to Welsh hwyl, the Minister's concepts are wrong. Nobody is suggesting a massive interchange of art treasures — if we tried to return all the Titians and Tintorettos to Italy we should not be thanked for it. However, there are two or three special cases—West Africa is an example, and clearly so are the Parthenon marbles—in which the importance of the items to the originating country far outweighs even the artistic value. A national perception is also involved. If Greece is the fount of western civilisation, we should accept the role of the Parthenon and the entire Acropolis, to which these marbles should be returned. This is not instant policy-making. The Opposition believe that it is right to do this and we intend to do it.

§ Mr. Waldegrave
I am not sure what the Parthenon is a symbol of except Athenian imperialism, of which it was built as a symbol. There is a proposal to have massive circulation of monuments. I quote from what the Leader of the Opposition said: supplementary to this is the need to give effect to a system of rotation of ancient treasures to make them accessible in the greatest numbers of places and to the greatest number of people That is what the right hon. Gentleman is proposing.