HC Deb 18 January 1984 vol 52 cc306-9
7. Mr. Hirst

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met leaders of the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland; and what subjects were discussed.

Mr. Younger

I last met leaders of the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland when I addressed the president's council of the CBI in Glasgow on 7 November during the CBI annual conference. My principal theme was the importance of the new technologically based enterprises increasingly being attracted to Scotland. I shall be meeting the chairman and director of CBI Scotland on Friday 20 January to discuss CBI Scotland's Budget representations.

Mr. Hirst

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that the CBI in Scotland shares the concern of the House and the Scottish people about the future of Scott Lithgow? Does not the only practicable solution for the future of Scott Lithgow lie in the acquisition of the yard by an enterprise or consortium, whether United Kingdom or foreign, with the expertise and commercial reputation to build sophisticated oil-related structures? If my right hon. Friend agrees — [Interruption.] This is an important point, to which Opposition Members would do well to listen. If my right hon. Friend agrees with me, can he give an assurance that he and his Ministers will do all in their power to enable this acquisition to take place and thus to protect an important part of the Scottish industrial structure?

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said. I share his concern and that of all hon. Members about the serious situation that we have seen develop on the lower Clyde. I am only too willing to do anything that I can to assist in ensuring that somehow, if possible, the rig will be completed on the Clyde.

Mr. Roy Jenkins

Has the Secretary of State, in his discussions with the CBI, or in his mind, had clear signs of, on the one hand the cost of the immediate closure of the yard and, on the other, making it worth while for Britoil to agree to the completion of the rig?

Mr. Younger

The problem does not appear to be primarily a matter of cost. The calculation of the balance of cost depends crucially on what view British Shipbuilders takes of the likely cost of completing the rig under the present contract. The principal problem is that, for whatever reason, the customer lost confidence in the supplier and decided to terminate the contract.

Dr. Godman

The Secretary of State spoke of confidence. When will he defend, with conviction and principle, the economic and social interests of the people employed at Scott Lithgow, because he is not doing that now?

Mr. Younger

As far back as last April I held the first of many meetings with all concerned and spelt out in clear terms that I was concerned about the future of the contract, and I am only sorry that there was no quicker response to the suggestions that I then made.

Dr. Godman

They want guidance and leadership from the Secretary of State, and they are not getting it.

Mr. Budgen

When my right hon. Friend meets leaders of the Scottish CBI, will he remind them that every time they ask for special privileges for Scotland they get them and there is a counter-reaction in the West Midlands and West Midlanders say that they also need regional benefits? Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the West Midlands gets regional benefits he will be a party to undermining the Government's strategy?

Mr. Younger

I appreciate and share my hon. Friend's proper anxiety about the West Midlands. Nevertheless, I remind him that regional policy is not Scottish, but British, policy and that it has served Britain extremely well for the past 25 years. It has created about 100,000 new jobs in Scotland and about 500,000 in Britain as a whole.

Mr. Millan

Is it not clear that no third party will take over Scott Lithgow, except at public expense? Does that not mean that the most obvious, direct and cheapest means of saving the yard is to get Britoil and British Shipbuilders into negotiations? Does the Secretary of State agree that if the Government stand back and do not intervene to bring that about they will be conniving at the massacre of thousands of jobs?

Mr. Younger

The right hon. Gentleman, of all people, should be best placed to understand that the contract between British Shipbuilders and Britoil was perfectly freely entered into. It contained normal terms and clauses, which were freely agreed between the two parties. For whatever reason, during the course of the contract the customer lost confidence in the firm's ability to complete the rig on time and terminated the contract in a perfectly normal commercial way.

Mr. Henderson

Have the leaders of the CBI in Scotland given my right hon. Friend any preliminary reaction to the Government's White Paper on regional policy? Have they commented on the merits of increasing the emphasis on the importance of service industries for job creation and the extent to which greater selectivity in terms of quality of project is as important as price?

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. I have not had detailed discussions with the CBI in Scotland about the proposed regional policy, but its initial reaction to the general tenor of the proposals, especially those to bring service industries more into regional policy and to make the policy more job-related, has been favourable.

Mr. Buchan

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only people who do not understand that there is only a short gap of time available in which to take action to solve the problem at Scott Lithgow is the right hon. Gentleman and his Cabinet colleagues? Does he agree that he has used the opportunity provided by that gap of time to insult the workers at Scott Lithgow, as did his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister a month ago, and the junior Minister? The right hon. Gentleman could lift his little finger now and solve the problem. If he does not, we shall have horrendous unemployment in that isolated section of the Clyde. He is not aware of the dangers of the situation and appears ignorant of the possibilities.

Mr. Younger

With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, who has a constituency interest in this issue, for nearly one year I publicly and obviously warned everyone that this problem was likely to occur. Opposition Members have not said one word to encourage people involved at Scott Lithgow to realise the seriousness of the problem. That is a disgraceful commentary on their inability to take part in this important matter. With regard to the future, I have always made it clear that I shall do anything that I can to ensure, if that is possible, that the rig is completed on the Clyde, by some means or other.

Mr. Ewing

Is the Secretary of State aware that, in view of the state of the Scottish economy, his work rate will not stand much examination? Why, in view of his record on Linwood, on the pulp mill at Fort William and on the smelter at Invergordon, should we trust him to try to save the jobs at Scott Lithgow?

Mr. Younger

The hon. Gentleman knows better than to take such a selective view. I should have thought that he, of all people, who has good reason to thank the Government for helping to bring Wang to the area near that which he represents, would be rather more evenhanded.

Mr. McQuarrie

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is only now, during the death throes of Scott Lithgow, that the work force and management have realised the desperate circumstances? The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) calls for leadership. May we assure him—I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree — that there is leadership from the Government? We want a categorical assurance to my right hon. Friend from the work force and management that if there is any possibility of this yard being saved they will hold to whatever regulations he requires should be implemented to ensure the yard's future.

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his views. There has never been, and is not now, any disagreement between me and the representatives from Scott Lithgow, whom I have seen several times. If there are faults, they are no doubt on the side of the management and the work force, and that is not a matter of disagreement between them and me. It is a little hard, as I am the only person who has been giving any leadership during the past nine months — [Interruption.] The trouble is that I did not give it sufficiently loudly for those concerned to hear and understand me and do anything about the problems.

Mr. Dewar

Will the Secretary of State accept that there is deep and justified anger in Scotland at the lamentable spectacle of him sitting paralysed and ineffective while thousands of jobs on the lower Clyde are lost? Worse still, he is trying to cover his own glaring inadequacy by misconceived and tasteless attacks on the work force, which he is trying to make the scapegoat for the whole catastrophe. Will he now realise that if he had acted in a timely and decisive manner it would not be a matter of having to scramble around looking for some private sector rescue operation?

If it is possible for a third party to complete the contract, why is it not possible for British Shipbuilders to do that, given that, either way, it has to fund the losses to date? Does the right hon. Gentleman not at least realise that the minimum that we can ask is that he gets British Shipbuilders and Britoil around a table now to ensure that there is no possibility of disagreement about saving this contract, which is in the interests of the workers on the lower Clyde and, equally important, of this country if it is to have a creditable position in North sea technology?

Mr. Younger

I should be more impressed with the hon. Gentleman's well-prepared speech if he, or for that matter his predecessor, had uttered one word of leadership to the people at Scott Lithgow during the past year, either to sign the working agreement or not to go on the planned national strike. Not one word was said from the Opposition about that matter.

Dr. Godman

A positive response was made in September.

Mr. Younger

I believe that the hon. Gentleman understands that there is no difference of opinion between me and the work force, to which I have spoken about the fact that there have been faults on the side of the management and the unions concerned. Although I totally share the great anxiety of everyone about these problems, I at least can claim to have been trying to return leadership for nearly a year to put the problem right, and I have had no support whatever from the Opposition.

Mr. Maxton

Resign.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have allowed a good run on this very important matter. In fairness to those who have questions further down the Order Paper, we should now proceed more rapidly.