Wine Production (Hansard, 23 February 1984)

§ Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am still a fairly new Member, and I am not entirely familiar with the procedures of the House, but when we have a busy Session ahead of us, and when we on the Liberal-Social Democratic Alliance Benches have a restricted amount of time available in which to discuss matters of policy under the Supply day debates allocated to Members on these Benches, is it not in order, if the business of the day collapses and the Government are not in control of their own destinies to the extent that we reach the Adjournment debate at 5.52 pm, for the Leader of the House to explain to us why his business has collapsed and why we are adopting this unique procedure? It is certainly new to me.

§ Mr. John Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. For once, I shall not be critical of the Government. The business has collapsed because Members are not here to speak on the subject. I do not believe that the Adjournment debate and the one that will follow are matters of no importance. The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) would do better to take seriously the subject of the first Adjournment, and also the subject of the second Adjournment. I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you will tell him to take the business of the House seriously for once.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Paul Dean)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding), because he has helped me to help the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood). It is not entirely unknown for the business of the House to finish early. When it does, it is possible for hon. Members to put in for further Adjournment debates. In fact, that has already happened. We are now on the Adjournment.

§ Mr. Kirkwood
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is very difficult for young new Members of the House—[Interruption.] I defer to the greater experience of hon. Members around me, but is it not right that the Leader of the House should come here and explain exactly what is happening? The Standing Orders of the House are not clear.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman started by raising a serious point of procedure, which I tried to explain to him. He is now getting into a political argument, and we are now cutting into the time of the Adjournment, which has started.

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have before me "Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice". I do not expect new young Members to have read this book within the space of a fortnight, but the election took place on 9 June. Now we have the appalling spectacle of the Liberal candidate in Chesterfield, who is not prepared to debate with the candidates there—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I think it is time that we got on to the Adjournment debate. For the third time—[interruption]—for the third time, I call Mr. Anthony Steen.

§ Mr. Stephen Ross (Isle of Wight)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Surely Back-Bench Members have some rights, and it is time they were protected. Everybody knows what has been going on between the two Front Benches. They have been trying to ensure that the Adjournment debate took place at 5.55 pm and the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) has rushed here from somewhere outside the House to take it on.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I hope that the House will not get into political arguments. I was asked a perfectly reasonable question, which I have tried to answer. We are now on the Adjournment, which has been moved, and I call the hon. Member who has the Adjournment. We have private business to consider at seven o'clock. There is already a second Adjournment debate, which has been applied for and accepted by Mr. Speaker. If there is time, we shall come on to that. If there is further time, and further Adjournment debates are put in for and accepted by Mr. Speaker's Office, we shall be able to take them. However, it is not in order to argue these points at the present moment.

§ Mr. Golding
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Do you not realise that this is the alliance "Discredit the Speaker and the Chair Day"?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Mr. Steen.

§ Mr. Anthony Steen (South Hams)
I want to correct the suggestion that I have been brought in from anywhere. As the House knows, I virtually live in this place, day and night. It was merely a side step that brought me into the Chamber, and I am glad that I am so well prepared to cope with this debate at a much earlier hour than we originally expected.

§ Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside)
Will my hon. Friend give way, although I accept that he has only just started his speech?

§ Mr. Steen
Yes.

§ Mr. Colvin
I accept what my hon. Friend has just said about taking a side step into the Chamber. It is significant that 50 per cent. of the Members on the Liberal-Social Democratic alliance Benches have just taken a side step out of the Chamber.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I hope that we shall debate English wine.

§ Mr. Colvin
This is an important matter. It is not something frivolous. Is it not true that there is no such thing as English claret? Is it not, therefore, an appropriate moment for members of the alliance to leave the Chamber, write speeches, and come back and take a constructive part in this debate?

§ Mr. Steen
I thank my hon. Friend for that timely intervention. This is an important debate about a serious matter, and I shall be glad to touch on the problem of English claret in the course of my speech. If my hon. Friend is here, he will hear what I say, but if he is not he can read later what I say.

§ Mr. Skinner
rose—

§ Mr. Steen
I shall not give way, because I have hardly started.
May I say, first, that the Queen drinks English wine. Mr. Speaker serves it, the House of Commons stocks it and the Lord Mayor's banquet was flush with it this year. Thousands of people throughout the world enjoy English wine. Hon. Members will be amazed to learn that this year 2 million bottles of it will be produced. I speak, of course, about English wine produced from fresh grapes grown here on English soil.
In order to let hon. Members settle down, it might be as well at the outset to give the House an opportunity to realise what we are debating by drawing attention to the House of Commons' Members' wine list. Nos. 74 and 85 boast nine bottles of English wine. We must give credit to the far-sightedness and wisdom of the Catering Department, led by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Irving), whose wines come from Adgestone, which, as you will know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is in the Isle of Wight—

§ Mr. Golding
rose—

§ Mr. Steen
May I finish the argument? Then I shall gladly give way.
There is a wine from the Hascombe vineyard in Surrey; the Wootton vineyard in Somerset which is managed by Major Gillespie, the chairman of the English Vineyards Association; Lamberhurst Priory, which is master-minded by Kenneth McAlpine, the secretary of the English Vineyards Association; and a range of other wines — Staple St. James; Three Choirs, a famous wine; and a wine from the Biddenden vineyard and the Carr Taylor vineyard.

§ Mr. Golding
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Mr. Steen
Having just run through the wine list, may I say, Mr. Speaker, how delighted I am to see you in the Chair because all hon. Members know how much you enjoy a glass of English wine.

§ Mr. Golding
Is this not blatant advertising of the most unacceptable kind? The hon. Gentleman has listed all the vineyards and named their proprietors. He has called Mr. Speaker in aid of the production and sale of alcohol. Is that not disgraceful?

§ Mr. Steen
It is not disgraceful, but I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He is a robust and fervent supporter of this English beverage, and I know of his great enthusiasm for this alcoholic drink.

§ Mr. Golding
The hon. Gentleman realises that my remarks were intended to reduce the sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages, not to increase them.

§ Mr. Steen
I am sure that the House will note what the hon. Gentleman has said.
The House of Commons Members' wine list boasts a fair cross-section of English wines across the country and it has a range of vintages. If that is compared with the other wines on the list— French red or white, Yugoslavian and Italian wines — English wine has a distinct advantage. I congratulate the Catering Committee and its Chairman on their foresight and wisdom.
The debate is about English wine produced from fresh grapes grown in English soil. It is as well to remember that 1015 vineyards have existed in Britain for over 2,000 years. The grape is one of the oldest agricultural products. The Romans grew a fine grape many thousands of years ago. In the past three years there has been a massive development in the production of English wine. The House will be interested to know that in the past three years there has been a fourfold increase in production. In 1981–82 only half a million bottles of English white wine were produced. In 1982–83 1 million bottles were produced and this year it is expected that 2 million bottles will be produced. It is worth noting that primarily white wine is produced in Britain, although later I shall talk about an enterprising young man from my constituency who is going in for the production of red wine. That should be an interesting development.
The debate is about the important problems facing English vineyards. It is as well at the outset to distinguish English wine from British wine, which is an entirely different product. British wine is imported into Britain as a concentrate, must, or syrup. It is imported from the EC —Italy, Greece and France—and is often the worst end of their wine, and from the South American countries Argentina and Chile. The only thing that is British about British wine is the water that dilutes the syrup and the people who put it in the bottle. It is as well for the House to understand that there is this distinction between English wine that comes from fresh grapes and British wine that comes from must, concentrate or syrup.

§ Mr. Golding
rose—

§ Mr. Steen
I shall give way in a moment. I know that the hon. Gentleman is interested in this subject.
For the record, may I give the Shorter Oxford Dictionary's definition of "syrup"? It says that it is a thick sweet liquid; especially one consisting of a concentrated solution of sugar in water. It describes "must" as a new wine, grape juice before fermentation is complete. It defines "concentrate" as raising the strength of liquid by removing water". We should have those definitions in mind when we consider what we are importing.

§ Mr. Golding
The hon. Gentleman is contrasting English wine with British wine but in what category are Welsh and Cornish wines, and Scottish wines produced from grapes grown over the northern remit of the vine in Britain? The hon. Gentleman talks about British wine being a concentrate diluted by British water. Does that mean only English water or does that mean British water?

§ Mr. Steen
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, although I am surprised that he should speak of Scottish wine. I should have thought that the House would have realised that the bulk of the vineyards in Britain are in the east and south-east; frosts can destroy vines within moments. No serious farmer in Scotland would readily embark on creating a vineyard. In Wales, on the other hand, there are two vineyards, though I cannot tell the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding) what sort of liquid they produce.
As an honorary adviser to the English Vineyards Association, I must say that I have tasted a great number of wines and that some of them have been barely drinkable. I would not wish to comment on Welsh wines, 1016 but I have a note about a Welsh vineyard called Croffta —one might think that the name was more suited to Scotland — which is made not far from Cardiff and, according to my map, is situated in the mountains.
The map gives the details of vineyards in the United Kingdom and shows another Welsh vineyard called Werndêg, not far from the Prescelly mountains. I am not sure whether there is any relevance in that or in the fact that on the map the vineyard is marked over a prehistoric monument. However, that may have no bearing on the quality of the wine.

§ Mr. Golding
I thank the hon. Gentleman for including Wales. Is he aware that I am strongly advised that the poet Robert Burns wrote about Scottish wines? Is he further aware that Burns was more recent than the Romans?

§ Mr. Steen
The House will have noted that point with interest. Robert Burns may have been using the word "wine" in the generic sense to include cider.

§ Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge)
Is my hon. Friend aware that on the vexed question of Welsh wine there can be a great deal of deception? I purchased a bottle of Welsh wine in a village in Pembrokeshire called Newport and, as one might have expected, the label was written in Welsh. When, to find out what I was going to drink, I had the label translated, I was informed that it said "Wines from different EEC countries." Does he agree that that is gross deception and does not help Welsh wine?

§ Mr. Steen
I am grateful for that intervention from my hon. Friend, who is a next-door neighbour of mine, not just on this Bench but in Devon. Although we are taking our time to get warmed up in the debate and are enjoying the odd joke, my hon. Friend has stumbled, probably unwittingly, on an important point because he is talking about the total confusion in his mind and in the minds of many others.

§ Mr. Nicholls
I had the words on the label translated.

§ Mr. Steen
The confusion in his mind was that he was drinking Welsh wine. In fact, he was drinking wine must or syrup imported from Germany, Italy or Greece, diluted with Welsh water.

§ Mr. Golding
Did not the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) say that he had the label translated before drinking the contents of the bottle?

§ Mr. Steen
He nearly drank it. He believed that he would be drinking Welsh wine.

§ Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East)
My hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) is taking his time over this because he has time to take; the mind boggles as to what he would have done if he had had only the traditional half hour for the Adjournment.

§ Mr. Steen
I should not be giving way to my hon. Friend.

§ Mr. Dykes
My hon. Friend said earlier that must or concentrated grape juice was imported from various areas, and he mentioned Chile and Argentina. I wish to declare an interest, as the parliamentary adviser to the National Association of British Wine Producers—

§ Mr. Golding
Now we know.

§ Mr. Dykes
It is in the Register of Members' Interests.
This is a noble profession and a noble industry. It provides much employment in Britain and represents 22 1017 per cent. of total non-spirit sales in this country. I checked with that association this morning and I am assured—the association's authority is all I have to go on—that, unless it is mistaken, no concentrated grape juice is currently imported from Argentina or Chile. I suggest, therefore, that my hon. Friend has thrown that in as an emotional element to try to curry favour with certain Labour Members for his case on the English wine industry.
We all greatly admire the development of the English wine industry, wish it well in the future and hope to see a significant expansion. However, does my hon. Friend agree that it will always remain a fairly small industry, because of our climatic problems, and that it is not to be compared with British wines, in that they are generically two different kinds of drink?

§ Mr. Golding
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May we be reminded whose Adjournment debate this is?

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) has given way a great deal. Perhaps we can now hear the debate.

§ Mr. Steen
In view of that comment, Mr. Speaker, I will refrain from giving way further to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme because it is clear that his interventions are spoiling the flow of the argument.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) made several important points. It is important for the House to remember that British wine is easily confused in that it is produced by bringing concentrated must or syrup to this country. I have it on good advice that if Chilean or Argentine syrup is not now coming to Britain, it was; it may have been delayed because of events in that part of the world. That is what I have been advised and I have heard nothing to make me change my view.
The problem with all the federations and associations is that not all vineyards and manufacturers are members of them. There may be bottlers getting syrup from South America, adding the water of the area and selling the resultant bottles of wine. I shall be coming to that shortly, and I was grateful for the helpful intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East.

§ Mr. Dykes
rose—

§ Mr. Steen
I shall not give way again. I am sure that there will be ample opportunity for my hon. Friend to make his own speech.
A big problem for English wine is the deliberate misrepresentation of bottle names by the British wine producers, and in that I include the design and wording of the labels. It is a clear case of deception and misrepresentation.
Consider, for example, the British wine selling under the trade name "Rougemont Castle". That castle is in Exeter. My research team has been hard at work and has found that it is not a ruin but is used as a law court. The castle is featured on the label of British wine that is made in Exeter under that banner. There is a picture of Rougemont castle on the label with bunches of grapes around it. I have never seen law courts with bunches of grapes around them, and I have certainly never seen a castle so bedecked.

§ Mr. Golding
Will the hon. Gentleman permit me to intervene?

§ Mr. Steen
Shortly.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I hope that hon. Members will permit us to hear the debate.

§ Mr. Steen
What has an Exeter castle got to do with syrup imported from EEC countries or from the South Americas?

§ Mr. Dykes
I am sorry to intervene again. My hon. Friend just said that he agrees with me that much is not coming from South America, but perhaps it was. He has now repeated that the wine is emanating from South America. Surely that is incorrect. On good authority, my evidence is that there are no imports of concentrated grape juice from South America, especially those two rather controversial countries. I am sure that my hon. Friend did not mean to mislead the House and the public in his broadcast this morning on the BBC programme "Today" to which there is apparently no right of reply and no proper explanation can be made.
I have checked this matter with the industry. The bottom of the labels of Rougemont Castle wine clearly state: Wines made from imported grape juice or words to that effect. Those labels do not mislead. All sorts of names for beverages, romantic or otherwise, do not mislead the public.

§ Mr. Steen
I shall deal with that point shortly. I hope the House will bear with me, because I have been fair in allowing hon. Members from both sides of the House to intervene, which has disrupted my argument somewhat.
My view is that there is gross misrepresentation on a wine label featuring a Norman castle, standing alone, with grapes on it. The immediate response of a person picking up a bottle whose label included a picture of a castle, grapes and the name Rougemont Castle would be that the wine was made or produced in Exeter or around that castle.

§ Mr. Golding
rose—

§ Mr. Steen
I shall not give way. The label of one wine, Belgrove, gives the impression of a English stately home, and a horse and carriage are shown running in front. That is clearly aimed at giving the impression that the wine comes from an English country house. Why do that, unless one presumes that it is the stuff drunk by people living in English country houses or that it comes from the English country house? What has that to do with imported concentrate from Greece, Germany or France?
Carrow Prior is bottled by the mustard people, Colmans, at Norwich. The label shows an attractive Elizabethan house—I have come armed with the label—and underneath "Carrow Prior" is written: Carrow Prior was a Benedictine Foundation started in the 12th century at the Carrow, Norwich. Although only ruins of this medieval period remain, part of the present house dates from the early sixteenth century. Today, Carrow Priory is produced on the same site as this historic Norwich landmark. What have that information and the Elizabethan house to do with imported syrup from France or Germany?
On the face of it, those labels are a misrepresentation. They are disturbing because they are put on bottles with the sole aim of misleading the public into thinking they are drinking something else. The conclusion, therefore. is that the pictures and the wording are designed to deceive. The manufacturers are attempting to misrepresent the area from which their product comes.
The conclusion is reinforced — I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East is in the 1019 Chamber—by the other brand names of British wines, which are less successful, such as Concord and Cabaret, because few people will buy wine with such names. I am told that those wines are less successful than wines such as Carrow Priory, which has a sense of antiquity about it, Rougemont Castel or Belgrove. Those labels are designed specifically to mislead the public.
For four years I have repeatedly drawn this misrepresentation to the attention of successive Ministers responsible for consumer affairs and agriculture and the Office of Fair Trading. There has been a comparative lack of interest. The letters I have received are of considerable interest. One letter from a Minister makes it plain that he feels he cannot do more than take an interest. He cannot change the law or persuade British manufacturers to change their policies.
In 1981 the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker). He wrote a number of letters to the English Vineyards Association and raised these matters with various Ministers in other Departments, but to little avail. In 1983 the Minster for Consumer Affairs, my hon. Friend who is now the Member for Reading East (Sir. G. Vaughan), took this matter up. His letter to me of 15 March 1983 said: I promised to consult Peter Walker, Jock Bruce-Gardyne and Gordon Borrie on the points you raised at our meeting last December on behalf of the English Vineyards Association. You have already received a copy of Jock Bruce-Gardyne's letter on the duty rates on English wine. On the question of confusing labelling, it seems that following your meeting with Peter Walker in late 1981 it was suggested to the NABWP"— I imagine that that is the professional association in which my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East mentioned his interest— that the issue shall be put beyond reasonable doubt by the addition of further information on their labels to show that their product was made from imported materials. As you know the NABWP adopted this suggestion by requiring their members under the new Code of Practice to include on their labels the phrase 'made from imported grape juice' or an appropriate equivalent. I know that the EVA do not regard this as sufficient. But it is Peter Walker's view, and I am inclined to agree, that given an indication of this sort the risk of confusion between the two products is slight. However, Gordon Borrie"— of the Office of Fair Trading— has proposed that there should be joint discussions between MAFF, the OFT and NABWP to further clarify the Codes labelling recommendations to ensure there is no question of misleading the public about the ingredients of British wine. As you know it is our aim to improve trading standards by the development of sensible voluntary codes of practice and with the help of Gordon Borrie's Office, I see no reason why a satisfactory solution should not be arrived at this way. But, as I said before, it is MAFF as the Department responsible for the implementation of the EEC Wine Regulations which is the lead Department on this.
It is gratifying to see my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in her place and listening so attentively to the debate. It is clear that she will want to participate in due course and reply to the various issues that are raised.
The English Vineyards Association does not believe that the wording on the labels negatives the pictures and the names of the wine except for the very sophisticated.
The second problem is the failure of British wine manufacturers to state in large enough type, or perhaps at 1020 all on some labels, although I have not seen labels that do not bear the wording, that the content of the bottle comes from abroad in the form of syrup and concentrate and not from Britain.
Conveniently, I have another label in my pocket. Part of it reads: Produced from imported grape concentrate".
That is fairly sound, but some labels state that the contents have been produced from imported grape juice. I believe that that is stated on the Marks and Spencer bottle, which bears a label which contains a pretty picture which suggests that the wine comes from somewhere such as the Cotswolds. Certain pictures and names are designed clearly to mislead unless the customer reads the fine print.
It is the view of the English Vineyards Association that the voluntary agreement has not been properly honoured. It has done little to correct the impression that is derived from the name and the picture. I hope that my hon. Friend will tell us that she will put that right by advising British wine growers that the label must state the country of origin, as I believe the Marks and Spencer bottle does. It states that the wine comes from Germany, which is the right way to proceed. The label should state the country of origin clearly and the fact that the wine is made from concentrate, must or syrup. That information should be in print as bold as the wording that sets out the name of the vineyard.
Carrow Prior is in massive letters, and that is followed by the information that it is medium dry British wine. Perhaps Labour Members can read that even though they are sitting on the other side of the Chamber. Under that information, and in small black type of the same size as that which is used to tell us that the product is produced by Colmans in Norwich, is the phrase: Produced from imported grape concentrate. If you walked into an off licence, Mr. Speaker, which, with the greatest respect, I know you may not do, and saw the attractive label that is used for Carrow Prior wine and noted the Elizabethan—

§ Mr. Golding
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it permitted to bring exhibits into the Chamber? I always thought that it was not permissible to bring them into the Chamber to use them as the hon. Gentleman has done. I should like a ruling, Mr. Speaker, because there have been occasions when I would have wished to bring a telephone kiosk into the Chamber. We have our rules, and I understand that it was inadmissible to bring exhibits into the Chamber.

§ Mr. Speaker
It is not permissible to bring dangerous exhibits into the Chamber. I do not think that the items which the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) has brought with him can be described as dangerous.

§ Mr. Steen
I am grateful for that ruling, Mr. Speaker. I was advised that it would be inappropriate to bring a collection of English and British wines into the Chamber with a few glasses. I was therefore constrained, even though it would have been a suitable hour to bring in a bottle and a glass. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber would have enjoyed tasting the difference between British wine that is produced from syrup, and the real stuff that is produced from fresh grapes. I did not think that it would be dangerous to do so, but I thought that it might have an effect on the quality of the debate.
I ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that the lettering on the labels is as large and as 1021 prominent as it should be so that it can be read by ordinary men and women who are not necessarily as discerning or sophisticated as hon. Members may be. If that is done, they will be able to learn that the products that are retailing in supermarkets and off licences for about half the price of real English wine are wines which have been imported in the form of a syrup or must, diluted with English water, put into the botle and adorned with a fancy label. I am not criticising the products that have been produced from a concentrate or syrup. On the contrary, I know that many find it extremely tasty. For example, I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East is partial to British wine. I am not criticising him for enjoying that beverage.

§ Mr. Dykes
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure whether it is in order to make such a suggestion. I am not disagreeing that British wines are excellent beverages, but it might be thought that I consume an excessive amount of them as opposed to other wines. I am sure that my hon. Friend would not want to give that impression.

§ Mr. Speaker
Points of order must be matters on which I can rule. I could not possibly rule on the point which the hon. Gentleman has raised. I think that the happiest thing will be for the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) to get on with his speech.

§ Mr. Steen
I am doing my best to do so, Mr. Speaker, but I am severely constrained by interventions, including one of guilt, perhaps, from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East, who wants to ensure that none of his constituents feels that he is indulging in something which we all know he is not. The House will be grateful to British manufacturers for at least putting some note on the label. That was great progress, but I am sure that hon. Members will agree that that is not sufficient. It is not clear enough and something better should be done so that the public can readily see what they are drinking and what they are not.
I say that the print on the labels to which I have been referring is a fundamental misrepresentation. I know that hon. Members will have taken note of that and will wish to put matters right.

§ Mr. Dykes
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I shall take the hon. Gentleman's point of order if it is a point of order. However, it is not fair to try to intervene in the Adjournment debate of the hon. Member for South Hams by raising points of order.

§ Mr. Dykes
I apologise for intervening yet again, Mr. Speaker, but I think that I have a genuine point of order. To say that something is a "fundamental misrepresentation" is to make a most serious charge. Perhaps my hon. Friend will explain his reasons for doing so. To make such a charge is different from saying that the labelling should be better or that the printing should be clearer. The implication of my hon. Friend's charge is that there is deliberate intent to mislead the public. That is a serious accusation which is not borne out by the facts. All the labels have the importation subscriptions on the bottom.

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has raised a fair point, with which the hon. Member for South Hams can deal during his speech. He was not using the phrase "fundamental misrepresentation" while referring to another Member.

§ Mr. Steen
As I have said, British manufacturers have taken the first step. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister 1022 will tell us that she will lean on them a little harder, and I hope, also, that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East will take note of what is said. The English Vineyards Association is upset that so little has been done and it feels that something better should be done.
The third problem is perhaps the most serious one The Government give advantageous duty arrangements to imported concentrate. That is the result of a historical anomaly that is known as empire preference. That preference initially helped the Cypriot wine trade when Cyprus was part of the empire. Today it is not, but empire preference continues to be given. It is given to all concentrates and syrups that are imported, whether from South America or Europe. If there are French, German or Greek syrups which are surplus to requirements, those syrups can be imported — the same applies to concentrates — to Britain, and the EEC will give a subsidy to the bottler or importer. Empire preference is given to all imported concentrates.
I wonder what South America has to do with the British empire. The Parliamentary Secretary may ask herself that, if must is still imported from South America. Why should imported concentrate pay less duty than the English counterpart? The duty on British imported must or concentrate is 42 per cent. less per bottle than on English wine. To add insult to injury, if the concentrate comes from an EEC country the bottler is eligible for yet another subsidy—for an EEC handout. That is discrimination in favour of foreign products. If the product comes from the EEC, there is double discrimination. There is empire preference — and why should Germany, France and Greece have empire preference? —and there is also the EEC subsidy. I wonder how the Minister will get out of that.
The Parliamentary Secretary should start a process of harmonisation. She should put English wine on a par with British wine, in terms of duty. If we are to give preferential treatment through the EEC to European concentrate, will the Minister make sure that some similar support is given to our hard-pressed, unsupported English wine industry?
Those who choose to import syrup from Germany or France and add water to it receive empire preference—that is an advantage of 42 per cent. in duty over the English counterpart—and the EEC subsidy for bottling it. That is clearly discrimination in favour of the British wine. I do not suggest for a moment that the British wine should lose. I say that the English wine should benefit from the same advantage.

§ Mr. Colvin
I agree with everything that my hon. Friend has said. He referred to harmonisation, and when we hear that word in an EEC context a red danger signal flashes. Is my hon. Friend aware of the recent ruling by the European Court suggesting greater harmonisation of the duty on beer and on wine? The suggestion is that, in the cause of greater equity, the duty on beer should be increased by 7p, or the duty on wine should fall by 24p. Will my hon. Friend undertake to join, today, the campaign for a reduction in the duty on wine? That would help his campaign, but would not in any way harm the beer drinker. Bearing in mind that just as he—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Paul Dean)
Order. The hon. Gentleman is almost making a speech.

§ Mr. Colvin
I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I may make one final point. My hon. Friend supports the manufacture of English wine. Let us not forget that beer is 100 per cent. British.

§ Mr. Steen
I thank my hon. Friend for that timely intervention. He made an important point. It draws attention for the need for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the Budget which is soon to be unveiled to the House, to consider the question of duties on beers and wines. I am always happy to join a campaign, particularly if it will help the hard-pressed English wine industry.
I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East is not with us. Perhaps he has nipped out for a glass of English wine.
The empire subsidy, in terms of syrup from Germany, is a contradiction in terms. My suggestion is that the Minister should give the same advantages to English wine growers. She should not increase the duty paid by British wine growers, but should attempt to bring down the duty paid on English wine. That must be the right approach.
The Government have for some years been financing half a worker at the Long Ashton research station, where research is carried out into English wine and cider. On 8 February 1982 I tabled a series of questions about the Long Ashton research station. I put the questions to the Secretary of State for Education and Science, who apparently is the Minister responsible. My concern was that the number of staff in the pomology division of the research station might be cut. I then represented the Wavertree district of Liverpool, where there are not many vineyards.
I asked the Secretary of State what the present staff establishment was in various categories. I asked him how many staff are currently employed in the food and beverage division … how many staff are currently employed in the pomology division … how many staff are currently employed in the ciderhouse section and finally, how many staff are currently employed in the home food science section"? The answer was interesting. It referred to The staff establishment by categories at Long Ashton research station as at 1 December 1981 (excluding a small number of appointments sponsored by the private sector)".
Apparently there are 149.5 members of staff in the scientifc section, 39.5 other non-industrials, 10 skilled craftsmen, 34.5 semi-skilled craftsmen, half an unskilled worker and 25.5 administrative staff. At that date the total complement was 258.5. There were 33 members of staff in the food and beverage division, 32 in the pomology division, 5.5 in the ciderhouse section and 7.5 in the home food science section.
The Minister continued: The function of the ciderhouse section is to provide practical advice on cider-processing techniques and equipment, and to produce cider for experimental purposes (the surplus being sold)." The crunch line was: The future of the pomology division and the food and beverage division … is at present under consideration by the Agricultural Research Council, in consultation with interested bodies. Any decision which may be taken following those consultations, will be matters for the council, acting under the terms of their Royal Charter."—[Official Report, 8 February 1982; Vol. 17, c. 295–96.]
At the time, as well as looking at apples, the pomology department was managing to take a little look at grapes. It was helping the English Vineyards Association with 1024 experimental grapes and the problems associated with them. That was an important task. Our climate gives the English vineyards a tough time.
I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure the House, and especially my right hon. and hon. Friends who have attended this important debate, that the Government have no plan to axe the pomology department or in any way to reduce the number of staff involved in experimental work in connection with English vineyards.

§ Mr. Tim Renton (Mid-Sussex)
Can my right hon. Friend tell us where the dreadful word "pomology" comes from? I have never heard it before. There is a good old English word, "apple". Why should we use a word which appears to be a hybrid of the French word "pomme" and the Greek word "logos"? It is bad enough that Golden Delicious apples should be taking over our domestic market, but that the French language should take over the terms used in this place is a matter for great regret.

§ Mr. Steen
I am not equipped to deal with the terminology of pomology. When my hon. Friend and I first came to the House we noticed that the menu in the Members' Dining Room was written in French. Many places write their menus in French in the belief that that improves the food. Perhaps the Long Ashton research station feels that the relevant department's work is put up market by calling it the pomology department. I cannot give my hon. Friend any more assistance.

§ Sir Geoffrey Finsberg (Hampstead and Highgate)
May I suggest one way in which the Government can help the English wine industry? They could follow my example. As a Minister in two Departments, I ensured that hospitality in my office involved only English wine. There was no French or German wine and no spirits. Perhaps my hon. Friend will commend that action to the Minister.

§ Mr. Steen
I am most grateful for that illuminating information. We do not normally hear what goes on behind the closed cocktail doors of Ministers. Mr. Speaker is known to enjoy a glass of this beverage. The Queen also enjoys a glass at state banquets. It is highly popular. I should like more hon. Members to enjoy it.

§ Mr. Golding
rose—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not bring the tastes of Mr. Speaker or any other occupant of the Chair into the debate.

§ Mr. Steen
That was just a throwaway line.

§ Mr. Golding
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It may have been a throwaway line, but it has been thrown away at least 12 times during the debate. The hon. Gentleman should be rebuked for constantly bringing in the Chair in a blatant advertising campaign.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has made his point. We are rapidly approaching the hour when we shall move on to other business.

§ Mr. Steen
I was not suggesting that Mr. Speaker did anything other than present the beverage to his guests. I would not wish for a moment to advertise that fact or to draw attention to it.
I should like to draw attention to two interesting experiments in my constituency. Farmers in south Devon, who face all manner of pressures, are taking to experimentation with vines. I should like to draw attention 1025 to the Dittisham fruit farm which is called the Ditsome fruit farm by those who know how to pronounce it. It produces a fine sparkling white wine from the Capton vineyard. Even on the hills of south Devon around Dartmouth farmers have managed to produce for the second year a perfectly drinkable and likeable white wine. It is therefore possible to produce wine as far west as the west country where it is extremely wet.
The second experiment in my constituency involves claret. One of my hon. Friends mentioned English claret. It was not a Social Democratic Member, none of whom is here. A most interesting experiment is being conducted at Beenleigh manor at Harbertonford near Totnes. Mr. Andrew Wilson-Gough wrote to me a letter dated 13 September 1983. He told me that he hopes to plant several acres with red grapes this year. That is most unusual. I shall watch the experiment with interest and I hope to taste the results. His anxiety when he wrote to me concerned the levels of duty. He has a substantial interest in cider but he may have thought twice about going into wine production because of what is regarded as discrimination against English wine.

§ Mr. Renton
My hon. Friend has just made an important point. He will remember that claret was always the drink of the Scots and that port was the drink of the English. He will remember the famous poem which runs: Tall and erect the Caledonian stood, Old was his claret and his mutton good. 'Drink this port', the English statesman cried, He drank the vile stuff and his spirit died. Claret, which is a French word like pomology, derives from the French words clair and et. There are many good vineyards in Sussex, some of which are in my constituency. The fact that claret is now being produced in my hon. Friend's constituency shows that the tradition of centuries that I have described is being changed. That is important.

§ Mr. Steen
My hon. Friend is always of great interest when he intervenes, especially when he recites poetry. The House was pleased to hear his contribution. It is worth noting that there are some fine vineyards in Sussex, especially east Sussex. There is Horam manor, Little Pook hill, Brede and many others.

§ Mr. Nicholls
Is my hon. Friend aware that good vineyards are to be found in my constituency, which neighbours his? The Whitstone vineyard in my 1026 constituency is excellent. Is my hon. Friend aware that his constituency has no monopoly of vineyards in the west country?

§ Mr. Steen
I would not suggest for a moment that my constituency has a monopoly of vineyards. I should certainly like an invitation from my hon. Friend to visit the vineyards in his constituency.
I should like to describe the absurd circumstances that face 200 English vineyards. As in France and Germany, English vineyards want to show off their produce. They run charabanc tours to vineyards. French, German, and Danish tourists pour in and want to enjoy a glass of wine after they have been shown round the vineyard. The vineyards want to help tourism and generate local employment. However, the man from the Treasury prevents even one glass of wine being offered to visitors unless the vineyard has applied for and been granted an on licence. In those circumstances, glasses of wine may be sold during public house hours. Should tourists be so unwise as to visit a vineyard out of licensing hours, they have to rest content with buying a bottle from the vineyard's off licence premises, assuming, that is, that the vineyard has applied for and been granted an off licence. Therefore, vineyards need a room or building for an on licence and a building or room for an off licence. That is not all. If the tourists miss the licensing hours, they cannot drink a glass of wine on the premises but must go to the off licence room, buy a bottle of wine and consume it off the premises. To do that, they have to go into the premises of a third person, who provides them with a corkscrew and glass, in order to taste the product of the premises of the vineyard owner.
Tourists who wish to sample a bottle of wine in off licence hours have to buy it and take it off the premises. If tourists want to taste a glass of wine during public house hours, they can do so, but if they wish to taste a glass of wine out of public house hours they must buy an off licence bottle and go to a hut or room belonging to a neighbouring farmer, taking a corkscrew and a glass with them.

§ Mr. Golding
How would the hon. Member define a bona fide tourist—