HC Deb 14 February 1984 vol 54 cc120-1
12. Mr. Tony Banks

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what animals are used for testing the wound-effects of ammunition in the United Kingdom; and where the tests take place.

Mr. Lee

Although alternative means are used wherever possible, some experiments are conducted on animals to assist improvement in the treatment of wounds. Various species have been used. All animals used are deeply anaesthetised. The experiments are conducted at the chemical defence establishment, Porton Down.

Mr. Banks

Will the Minister, who has just given an unpleasant and disturbing answer in terms of its content, if not its delivery, say how many animals are used—perhaps giving figures for last year—and what species are involved?

Mr. Lee

With respect, I am not prepared to give specific information. Of about 4 million experiments on animals which are conducted in the United Kingdom annually, the Ministry of Defence conducts about 10,000. The vast majority of them relate to work to ensure that our forces are adequately protected from chemical or biological attack.

Miss Fookes

Will my hon. Friend note that many of those who are interested in animal welfare find these tests particularly repulsive? Will he further note that I regard his answer as evasive in the extreme?

Mr. Lee

I am sorry about that. No one derives any pleasure from authorising an experiment of this type, but we believe that they are essential. The work has made a valuable contribution to the treatment of wound injuries and aided post-operative recovery for civilians and service personnel.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Is it not the case that the Home Office, which has the responsibility, as the Minister pointed out, for by far the largest number of experiments, gives the full facts that the Ministry of Defence seems not to wish to give?

Mr. Lee

That may well be so.

Mr. Crouch

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us are prepared to defend the use of animals in experiments to save lives and to reduce pain? Will he take on board the fact that many of us are deeply disturbed by what has been revealed today? Is he aware that using animals to determine pain and illness is the very reverse of what we have always tried to defend with regard to animal experiments?

Mr. Lee

I shall take my hon. Friend's point on board.

Mr. McNamara

Is the Minister aware that what he has said has disgusted many elements in the House, particularly as he is not prepared to say that animals are involved, in what types of experiment and to what extent? If we believe, as many of us do, that there are occasions when animals must be experimented upon to save life, improve medicines and so on, we can only justify that belief by having the most open supply of information. He must tell us the numbers of animals involved, their species and the types of experiments for which they were used.

Mr. Lee

I stand by my answers.

Mr. Wiggin

Does my hon. Friend agree that the record of our medical services during the Falklands war has never been surpassed in the history of warfare and that, unhappily, it is necessary to do research of this type to ensure that human suffering is minimised in such circumstances?

Mr. Lee

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that observation.