HC Deb 07 February 1984 vol 53 cc747-8
4. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his latest assessment of the effect the Rates Bill, in its present form, will have on the expenditure of the Inner London education authority and the level and quality of its services.

Sir Keith Joseph

The ILEA, if selected for rate limitation, would be required to reduce its present excessive expenditure, which appears to contribute little to the quality of most of its services compared with those provided by some other inner city authorities; and to obtain better value for money.

Mr. Dubs

Is it not true that the Rates Bill will, in effect, enable the Government to demand cuts of £120 million in the services provided by ILEA, and that cuts of such a magnitude could not be carried out without, for example, damaging consequences for education for the under-fives, for adult education and for remedial education for the most disadvantaged pupils in the area?

Sir Keith Joseph

No, the hon. Gentleman is parroting the alarmist and selective catalogue of protests by ILEA elected members. I wish that Opposition Members would focus on what really matters—the quality of education for the children — instead of on figures alone. The tragedy of ILEA is that, despite the zeal and devotion of many of its teachers and the pioneering work that they have done, its expenditure is simply out of proportion to the results being achieved. Educational standards cannot be improved overnight, but the lesson of ILEA's 20 years is that throwing money at problems does not buy educational success.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

Having also had an opportunity to study ILEA in depth, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he agrees that, even allowing for the problems of inner city education, ILEA is, regretfully, a very good illustration of the fact that one does not necessarily get better education by spending more money?

Sir Keith Joseph

I agree with every word of my right hon. and learned Friend's question. I should also like to say, on behalf of the whole House, that it is a pleasure to see him here again.

Mr. Cartwright

Is the Secretary of State aware that many pensioners and disabled people in inner London derive considerable benefit from adult education classes and are extremely concerned about the implications of the suggested 13 per cent. cut in education spending in inner London. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes not to be alarmist, can he assure the House that the quality of adult education will be maintained after the spending cuts have been enforced?

Sir Keith Joseph

I cannot imagine that if the Bill is passed the successor authority will ignore the importance of adult education.

Mr. Bottomley

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many pensioners who take advantage of adult education believe that it is ludicrous that they should be charged only £1 a year for as many classes as they wish to take, and that many of them would be willing to contribute more in order to retain adult education?

Sir Keith Joseph

That is a typical example of the unnecessary extravagance of ILEA, which reduces the effectiveness of its services.

Mr. Flannery

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the important article in the latest issue of The Times Educational Supplement, which states categorically that the result of his high-handedness in regard to these matters is that crisis point has been arrived at in his association with the Association of County Councils, the Association of Municipal Authorities and the local education authorities? Is this not due to the fact that—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The question deals with ILEA.

Mr. Flannery

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. ILEA is one of the educational authorities to which I am referring.

Sir Keith Joseph

The hon. Gentleman has question No. 19, which is rather nearer to the subject about which he is asking.

Mr. Tracey

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that in ILEA there were 6,073 more non-teaching than teaching staff in 1983, and that the budgeted costs for non-teaching staff in the coming year are to increase by 18.4 per cent.? Does he agree that there are ILEA staff who say that £62 million could be saved on the budget by blocking that?

Sir Keith Joseph

I agree with my hon. Friend's general thesis. ILEA spends more than twice as much per secondary pupil as the outer London boroughs on support staffing — caretaking, cleaning, administrative and clerical staff. ILEA charges 35p for a school meal, although the average charge is 52p; ILEA's expenditure on school meals increased by 25 per cent., while the national figure fell by 2.5 per cent. ILEA has plenty of scope to make savings without any damage to educational standards.

Mr. Radice

Does the Secretary of State accept that ILEA, which faces great problems, is one of the authorities which are setting standards in precisely the areas which he highlighted in his Sheffield speech — examination reform, curriculum development and under-achievement? What is the educational justification for clobbering ILEA?

Sir Keith Joseph

May I repeat the words that I used earlier? In spite of the zeal, devotion and pioneering work of many of its teachers, the tragedy of ILEA is that its expenditure is simply out of proportion to the results being achieved. There are many examples of extravagance, such as those illustrated by my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey).