Teachers (Scotland) (Hansard, 12 December 1984)

§ Mr. Donald Dewar (Glasgow, Garscadden)
I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the Government's refusal yesterday to have an independent pay review for teachers in Scotland. The matter is specific, because yesterday the Secretary of State for Scotland announced that he was refusing what the Opposition believed was a thoroughly justified claim. The Minister made the announcement by written answer, which gave the House no opportunity to call the Secretary of State for Scotland to account.
This matter is important, because, as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's intransigence, we are faced with the prospect of a protracted period of disruption in our schools which could be disastrous for teachers, for parents and, above all, for pupils. If the teachers are right in thinking that their salaries have fallen behind those of comparable groups, they deserve justice. If they are wrong, the Secretary of State has nothing to fear from an independent inquiry.
The House should have an immediate opportunity to probe the reason why teachers in Scotland can obtain redress only at the price of accepting a sharp deterioration in their conditions of service. If there is no debate, and Ministers do not reconsider their position, there will be serious consequences, deepening the mood of anger and resentment in our schools, a mood which the Minister responsible for education in Scotland—the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart)—described in the House last night in an insensitive and unhappy phrase as "hysterical".
The Opposition's sense of urgency is reinforced by the knowledge that there will be widespread industrial action in Scotland's schools during the next few days. Teachers expect the House to have flexibility and a sense of priority of such an order as to allow it to respond to their outrage. In that expectation, they will have widespread support from Scottish public opinion. For those reasons, I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to consider this application sympathetically.

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely, the Government's refusal yesterday to have an independent pay review for teachers in Scotland. I have listened carefully to the hon. Member's speech, but I regret to say that I do not consider the matter that he has raised as appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 10. Therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

§ Mr. Norman Buchan (Paisley, South)
On a point of order, Mr.Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
No point of order can arise on that subject.

§ Mr. Buchan
On the contrary, Sir. I completely accept your ruling, but, it has been alleged that the Minister responsible for education in Scotland described the teachers' response as "hysterical". The hon. Gentleman 1076 appeared just now to deny that. Is is possible to give the Minister the opportunity to tell us exactly what he said if he did not use the word "hysterical"?

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not possible now.

§ Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland)
I beg leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the postponement of the announcement of the introduction of phases II and III of the standard grade examinations in Scottish schools as a result of industrial action by Scottish teachers.
This is an important and specific subject. As the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) said, last night the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland announced that, following consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Government have agreed to the postponement of phases II and III of the standard grade reform of the curricula in Scottish schools.
It is clear that phase I covers English, mathematics, science and social and vocational skills, and phases II and III cover all the other subjects. It is clear that the subjects in which there is to be a postponement of the reform cover a wide range. It is clear also that such an important reform of Scottish education is falling and crumbling around the Government's ears.
This matter is urgent because, although phases II and III were not scheduled to come into operation until 1985 and 1986 respectively, the important preparatory work to bring those phases into operation must be done now.
The hon. Member for Garscadden has referred to the industrial action, which is part and parcel of this matter, and which is holding up the reforms. That industrial action is related to the Government's action—or rather inaction —in dealing with the teachers' justifiable claims for an independent pay review.
I therefore submit that this is an important and urgent matter. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to grant this application and allow the House the opportunity to challenge the Government's educational policies in Scotland, which are rapidly pushing Scottish education into an ever-deepening crisis.

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely, the postponement of the announcement of the introduction of phases II and III of the standard grade examinations in Scottish schools as a result of industrial action by Scottish teachers.
I regret to say that I must give the hon. Member the same answer I gave the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar). I have listened carefully to what the hon. Member said, but I do not consider that the matter he has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing order No. 10. Therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My point of order involves statements of ministerial speeches that are placed in the Library. Mr. Deputy Speaker will recall that, last night, I asked for the speech of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to be made available in the Library, and the Scottish Office 1077 Ministers courteously made such arrangements. The Library copy of the statement—I do not know whether it has the official status of the Hansard report—states that I asked: A what reaction—historical or hysterical? The Minister replied: I understood that there has been a hysterical reaction to this point. That may not appear in the Official Report, but it certainly appears in the report placed in the Library. Does that Library report have official status?

§ Mr. Speaker
A paper in the Library does not have the status of a statement in the House. I cannot comment on any ministerial statement placed in the Library or the language in which it is couched. The report may have been uncorrected.

§ Mr. Donald Dewar (Glasgow, Garscadden)
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to delay the House, because I realise that my colleagues have important business to transact, and we are all looking forward to helping them.
It is clear that the Minister responsible for education in Scotland indicated forcefully when I made my Standing Order No. 10 application that he had not used the word "hysterical". The word appears in what I understand to be an official report. We shall check the details tomorrow. I presume that this will be a correct report. I hope that the Minister accepts that, in referring to the reaction of the principal teachers' union, he used a word which I regard as unfortunate — he said that its members were "hysterical".

§ Mr. Speaker
That is as may be, but it is not a matter for me.