HC Deb 11 December 1984 vol 69 cc895-6
4. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he has received any complaints about helicopters operating in Northern Ireland, especially in the Crossmaglen and Forkhill areas.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. John Lee)

There have been a few complaints, including some from the Crossmaglen and Forkhill areas. We are considering whether the levels of noise referred to in these complaints are sufficient to justify the payment of compensation by the Ministry of Defence. A decision on this complicated matter will be taken next year.

Mr. Dubs

May I urge the Minister to go to Forkhill and Crossmaglen and listen to local people? Is he aware that there is enormous feeling about the frequent helicopter flights? They sometimes fly as often as one every 30 seconds out of the military base at Crossmaglen. People who are by no means opposed to the security forces in general feel angry about helicopters flying at night 30 ft above their bedroom windows.

Mr. Lee

I take the hon. Gentleman's point. This is an operationally dangerous area. Many members of the security forces have been killed. There is a substantial threat from culvert bombs. Therefore, substantial helicopter activity is essential.

Mr. Key

Will my hon. Friend accept from those on both sides of the House who have been to Forkhill that people have a genuine complaint, particularly on Sundays when church services are upset by the noise of helicopters? Despite the security implications, will he do all that he can to ensure that only necessary flights take place on Sundays?

Mr. Lee

The security considerations must be paramount, but we shall take into account the points made, particularly about the sabbath.

Mr. John David Taylor

As I live in the same county as Crossmaglen and Forkhill and within 100 yards of the helicopter station, may I put it to the Minister that the vast majority of people in County Armagh welcome the presence of the helicopters and their constructive contribution towards the pursuit of terrorists? Is he aware that people have been killed even during church hours?

Mr. Lee

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's sentiments. I am sure that the security forces will also be grateful.

Mr. Duffy

Is the Minister aware that when more force than is reasonably necessary is used in sensitive areas, such as Crossmaglen, Forkhill and Derry, simply to appease Unionist politicians, not only is the infamy of the Black and Tans recalled, but the most notable and enduring casualty is the honour and reputation of the British Army?

Sir Humphrey Atkins

Sit down, you silly man.

Mr. Duffy

Say that outside.

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Lee

With respect, I think that the hon. Gentleman is overreacting. I am sure that the security forces do not use more force than is necessary in the circumstances.

Sir John Biggs-Davison

In view of the difficulty of operating helicopters in that region without infringing the border, is it not time that there was direct co-operation between the British and Irish Armies against those whom Dr. FitzGerald has described as the common enemy?

Mr. Lee

Relationships between the two forces are extremely good, but I take the specific point that my hon. Friend makes.

Mr. McNamara

Can the Minister say whether helicopters were used at the time of the Gransha hospital incident last week? Can he also say whether the British Army has now abandoned its stop-and-search policy in favour of a shoot-and-kill policy? Is he aware that the yellow card procedures seem to have been completely abandoned? Can he also tell us whether the two people killed by the British Army last week were first given the opportunity to surrender, whether there were any warrants out for their arrest, and, if so, why they were not dealt with by the RUC?

Mr. Lee

The services are, as always, answerable to the law.