HC Deb 25 October 1983 vol 47 cc126-8

asked the Secretary of State for [...]ence whether he has any plans to meet[...] teachers' unions to discuss the [...] places; and if he will make a [...]

The Under Secretary of State for Education and science (Mr. Peter

My right hon. Friend has on such plant at pres[...]

Mr. skinner

[...]ter ever gets round to meeting the leaders of the [...]unions, will he explain to them what economic log[...] is in having thousands of teachers on the dole [...] another Government Department is in the process [...]ing people to go through some phoney training [...]gsters between 16 and 19 on the YTS scheme? Would it not make more sense to have those teachers employed in classrooms teaching those grant-aided 16 to 19-year-olds? That would raise morale in the classroom and reduce the pupil-teacher ratio at the same time.

Mr. Brooke

My right hon. Friend recently met some of the associations and is due to meet representatives of the NUT on 1 November. The matter was not discussed at any of the previous meetings, nor is it on the agenda for the meeting with the NUT. My response to the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's remarks is that average class sizes in England are now the lowest so far recorded, at 25.1 for primary and 21.1 for secondary schools. The elimination of large classes depends on decisions by authorities and schools about priorities as well as on the resources available.

Mr. Farr

When my hon. Friend is considering this matter, will he bear in mind that the teacher-pupil ratio is at the best level it has ever been?

Mr. Brooke

My hon. Friend confirms the figures that I just gave to the House.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

How much does it cost the taxpayer to train a teacher? Is it not a considerable waste of public expenditure if that teacher is not able to work? And how many unused classrooms are now available in primary schools? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it would be a good idea to offer nursery education, employing many teachers who are unemployed, in those empty classrooms?

Mr. Brooke

A number of those questions fall outside the purview of the original question, but it may be helpful if I say that though there will be a significant reduction in the output of newly-trained secondary teachers by the late 1980s, the output, at 7,000 a year, will mean that there will still be an appreciable margin over the estimated annual demand for 5,000 such teachers.

Mr. Greenway

Will my hon. Friend assure the House that there will be no reduction of any significance in the number of places in Church colleges for teachers?

Mr. Brooke

We acknowledge that the voluntary sector has an important part to play in the [...] teachers, but in a changing world we cannot[...] to allocating a fixed and unchanging [...] training places to colleges supported by[...] denomination, especially when much teac[...]now occurs in universities.

Mr. Flannery

Is it not a fact that [...] ratio is due entirely to the fall in p [...] whereas the rolls in secondary school [...] When the Minister meets the teachers [...] to discuss something, and not me[...] Vacuo, [...] point made by my hon. Friend the [...] for Denton [...] Reddish (Mr. Bennett) about [...]eing unemployed will be one subject that the [...]nions will raise.[...] it not a fact that the pupil-teacher [...] in the private secto[...] using public money, is much [...] than in the public sector? That is disgra[...]thousands of highly trained teachers—bea[...]the YTS scheme—are out of work.

Mr. Speaker

[...] I must appeal for short supplementary[...]please

Mr. Brooke

The thrust of the main question related to the Secretary of[...]te's meetings with the associations of teachers. He has met the National Association of Schoolmasters — Union of Women Teachers, the Assistant Masters and Mistresses Association and the National Association of Head Teachers. On 1 November he is due to meet representatives of the NUT. This matter was not discussed at any of the previous meetings, nor has it been placed on the agenda for the meeting with the NUT.

Mr. Dobson

Will the Minister accept that the overall pupil-teacher ratio figures which he quoted are misleading —Her Majesty's inspectors of schools have pointed out that they are misleading — because of the uneven incidence of falling rolls and the fact that some teachers in special subjects such as physics may not be reappointed, so that physics classes may in future be expected to be taught by people qualified in, say, French? Does he appreciate therefore that the overall pupil-teacher ratio is not a significant figure in the circumstances?

Mr. Brooke

All ratios and statistics on a global scale embrace variations within them, but the fact remains that the figures are the best ever. Anybody who argues against them is suggesting that one can win a test match by making fewer runs.