HC Deb 10 November 1983 vol 48 cc403-4
12. Mr. Canavan

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons have been received in prison in Northern Ireland having been convicted of scheduled offences in the past 12 months.

Mr. Scott

Of the 1,867 persons committed to prison under sentence in the 12 months up to 30 September 1983, 476 were sentenced for scheduled offences.

Mr. Canavan

How many of those people are in prison because of the evidence of "supergrasses" who have been bribed by the police and given immunity from prosecution? Does he agree that law and order is being brought into disrepute, through a system of so-called justice in Northern Ireland that is grossly inferior to the standards of justice in England, Scotland or Wales?

Mr. Scott

Questions about evidence from converted terrorists is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, and not for me or my right hon. Friend. I utterly reject the basis of the supplementary question, which I believe is quite disgraceful.

Mr. Peter Robinson

Can the Minister say how many of those who were found guilty of such offences received non-custodial sentences?

Mr. Scott

I cannot say without notice. I would be very surprised if many people who were convicted of scheduled offences received non-custodial sentences.

Ms. Harman

Does the Minister accept that reducing the opportunities to the right to a jury trial through having people tried for serious offences by a judge alone undermines respect for law and order? Does he agree that by restoring jury trials he will restore more respect for the administration of justice, and not provide a fresh source for existing grievances?

Mr. Scott

I do not believe that anyone would lightly change from the system that exists in the rest of the. United Kingdom, but I am convinced that in the circumstances of Northern Ireland it is necessary for us to do that. On the other hand, we are having a comprehensive review under Sir George Baker of the workings of the emergency provisions legislation, and we should await his findings before we say anything more on the matter.

Mr. Flannery

Can the Minister give us an assurance that perjured murderers supergrassing, possibly on other murderers, are not being paid money to do that? Or are people being put in prison because of the so-called evidence of perjured murderers who are being paid?

Mr. Scott

I utterly reject the basis of that supplementary question. As I have already said, any detailed questions about payments are for my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, not for me.

Mr. Archer

I do not invite the Minister to anticipate Sir George Baker's report, but, as Mr. Dermot Walsh's survey in 1981 found that 40 per cent. of the cases tried under the Diplock procedure have no connection with terrorism, will he keep an open mind on the proposal that the Attorney-General's certifying out procedure should be replaced by a certifying in procedure so that there is no assumption that what appear on the face of them to be normal offences should be tried without a jury?

Mr. Scott

I am sure that Sir George Baker will have seen that evidence or allegation—as well as others—and will take it into account in his findings.