HC Deb 04 May 1983 vol 42 cc218-9
6. Mr. Foulkes

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland by what percentage the staffing levels in secondary schools in each region of Scotland are above those recommended in the publication "Secondary School Staffing" known as the Red Book.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Alexander Fletcher)

The information requested is contained in the Scottish Education Department's statistical bulletin No. 1/B1/1983 of January 1983, a copy of which was sent to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Foulkes

I am grateful to the Minister for sending me that copy, but will he confess that the statistics included in the information that he sent me show that some authorities are already above the recommended level above Red Book standards to deal with this major change? Will he now concede that the allowance that he has made is totally inadequate? Will he increase it, and increase the rate support grant to local authorities so that they can employ more secondary teachers to carry out those reforms, thus taking them out of the dole queue and putting them into the classrooms?

Mr. Fletcher

We do not agree that the grant is insufficient. However, because of the reforms that have been announced, we are, as the hon. Gentleman knows, increasing the allowance. The fact that some local authorities continue to staff their schools at above the average level—6.7 at present on Red Book standards—is no reason to suggest that other authorities, including Labour-controlled authorities, are failing in their duty to staff schools properly.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my hon. Friend agree that Tayside region, which often attracts criticism from the Opposition, has a splendid record on Red Book standards? Its record on examination results is above average. It is a very good authority, which consistently applies the logic that the customer is always right.

Mr. Fletcher

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is the use of resources, not the amount of money spent, that matters.

Mr. O'Neill

Will the Minister concede that the support that he suggests for implementation of the Munn and Dunning reforms could, according to his own figures, result in some local authorities having their teaching levels cut if his argument is carried through to its logical conclusion? Does the Minister see that as a meaningful contribution towards the realisation of his ambitions for the Munn and Dunning reports? Does he think that he can carry the teaching unions and the respective local authorities with him if he imposes cuts at the same time as he asks for reforms to be realised?

Mr. Fletcher

Yes, I do. We are increasing the allowance. The fact that some local authorities have an over-provision and are operating their staffing levels inefficiently does not justify the hon. Gentleman's remarks. He should bear in mind the increase to 5 or 6 per cent. above Red Book standards announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the fact that every day taken off the school year—to which we agreed—to allow teachers to prepare for the changes adds 0.5 per cent. to Red Book standards.